AAA ALPA Thread 9-7 to 9-13

[EyeInTheSky]

Uh oh,
Here come the United wieners....

Later,
Eye

 

[Junebug172]

Junebug & AWA320,

It is my understanding you are in for some big surprises in the not-to-distant future and John Prater just told a colleague of mine that his goal is to get both sides to the table and if they didnt work together to "let them stew in their juices".

Furthermore, USAPA now has about 2,400 cards. On September 17 the next furlough recall class will commence and USAPA will know from sources at the CLT Training Center exactly who will return to the company and who will not. The last furlough recall class will be held in a couple of weeks and then USAPA will know exactly which representational cards are valid and which ones would be voided.

When the number of cards is compared to the combined seniority list (with an exact/certified US Airways - AWA pilot list obtained from George Nicolau's Award), USAPA will know exactly how many cards are necessary to to have the NMB order an election. Therefore, the Company's recall timing is perfect and welcome news to USAPA''s Officer's.

By the way, if you would like to print an authoirization card click here.

By the way, I'm sure you're wondering if electing a new bargaining agent enhance our ability to redress the inequities of the Nicolau award?

Well, I understand the Nicolau Award is the product of an ALPA-mandated process and ALPA is bound to defend that process. The ALPA-US Airways MEC cannot prevail in its current litigation because it voluntarily submitted to the ALPA-mandated process. The USAPA, however, is not bound by ALPA's Constitution and cannot be subjected to ALPA’s political control. USAPA will assert its right under the Railway Labor Act to negotiate over the terms of any seniority integration. Under the RLA, seniority is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

By the way, did you see this letter?

I know, I know, you're going to threaten a DFR lawsuit and I say go ahead. As you know Lee Seham indicated believes your new/pending union, USAPA, has a federally protected right under the RLA to change union representatives. A successor union, such as the USAPA, has the legal right to negotiate changes in the terms and conditions of employment, including seniority. Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness.

Finally, I understand USAP nees 50% +1 of the total pilot voting population to force an election. The NMB will determine the pool of eligible pilot-voters from which this number is derived. This number includes, all active pilots East and West, furloughed pilots not working for another airline, pilots on medical leave and LOA or military leave. The MDA pilots and J4J pilots may or may not be included, that will be determined by the NMB - therefore it is critical that MDA and J4J pilots submit Authorization Cards.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

No suprises.

And Prater did not tell anyone that about "stewing" in anything. I've talked to a buddy of mine whose close to Prater and he said he was fed up with the east's nonsense and he was going to do what he should have done in May. This has been backed up with his latest email the was sent out to all east and west pilots.

As for USAPA, I understand that their money situation is becoming quite dire and they have resorted to begging. Cards are great, but you need money to make it all work.

And, it is yet to be determined whether or not we are a SBU. I'm sure USAPA knows how badly the east has pissed off their feeders. Enough so that they're willing to do anything to get even - even dillute those 2400 cards. Ask about this scenario during your next 10 hour phone call with USAPA.

And, its an iron-clad guarantee, that Nicolau will stand along with our respective CBA (LOA93 in your case) should a new union come on property.

Everything else you write about has been rehashed over and over so I won't go over it.

Its over. Give it up.

 

[767jetz]

To those who think USAPA is the answer to your problems, consider the source of all the rhetoric. From the start, the EAST MEC was very reluctant to share the truth about the arbitration. They were content with controlling the message that got out to the membership and preferred that no one actually read the transcripts of the arbitration. They tried to keep the line pilots from talking directly with their union president. They exerted peer pressure and attempted to "coach" and "rehearse" pilots who spoke at any meeting. They claimed that the EC and the Rice Committee would ensure that the Nicolau award is never forwarded and that the East MEC would prevail in forcing their will upon the West. That is obviously not what is unfolding. These people are your own pilots, your very own peers that you elected to office. That is where the problem lies.

ALPA or USAPA are just the names of an organization of pilots from your own ranks. Replacing your leadership should be your first priority. Do not be fooled by those promising the death of the Nicolau award if only a new union replaces ALPA. Not only will you expedite the implementation of the award, you will also be placed in a very vulnerable position of establishing a new union during a time when further consolidation is imminent. The risks far outweigh the false promises. A new union will still be run by the same people who got you to where you are now.

Before deciding, be sure you consider the pay, benefit, work rule, retirement, and attrition protection available to you and the significant quality of life improvements that are available to your family right now through the JNC process. Be sure you are not throwing these things away in return for false hope or out of misplaced frustration and emotion. And certainly not because of someone else's agenda. That frustration should be directed at your MEC, their vocal supporters, and the company.

It's time to put your emotions away, be reasonable about your expectations, talk to your families, and take the path that will bring you the most benefit with the least amount of peril, risk, and instability.

 

[Junebug172]

and there is nothing in the Transition Agreement

Actually there is.

See page 2.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

It's time to put your emotions away, be reasonable about your expectations, talk to your families, and take the path that will bring you the most benefit with the least amount of peril, risk, and instability.

Wow, that was a fast United wiener response. The hypocrisy is amazing, you guys just crack me up.

Later,
Eye

 

[autofixer]

Okay 767jetz, considering:


Pay=40% cut, 737-300 Captain to F/O + bankruptcy rates negiotiated by ALPA with NO SNAPBACKS!
Attrition=St. Nic took care of that...lost 17 years, now junior to someone who was not even hired when I was a Captain here at USAirways.
Work Rules=there aren't any, working 19-21 days per month.
retirement=long gone.

Why should ALPA stay? Card mailed.

 

[EastUS]

Wow, that was a fast United wiener response. The hypocrisy is amazing, you guys just crack me up.

Later,
Eye

Aww...be fair Eye...he couldn't have better evidenced the true nature of Alpoid "thinking", and is not then truly hypocritical. Note the strident call to arms inherent in: QUOTE(767jetz @ Sep 13 2007, 12:10 PM)
It's time to put your emotions away, be reasonable about your expectations, talk to your families, and take the path that will bring you the most benefit with the least amount of peril, risk, and instability."

In one fell swoop we've got: "It's time to put your emotions away", in other words? = forget about being angry at Alpo's latest amazing hose job, won't you all?...Pretty please?

"be reasonable about your expectations,", which I take to mean just blissfully ride along with more of the same from the crowd that tossed our pensions/work rules/et al away without any membership vote. Come to think on it? After 2 plus decades?: I'm VERY "resonable when considering my "expectations" as to what's in store from Alpo 😉

"talk to your families," in hopes that other influences might serve to dissolve any actual backbones present. Spines are a pure nuisance to Alpoids it seems.

"and take the path that will bring you the most benefit with the least amount of peril, risk, and instability." Wow!...a good thing for us all that Orville and Wilbur didn't think in such terms A perfect representation of Alpo's established wholesale surrender philosophy without any fight thinking though. "take the path.....with the least amount of peril". Lord help anyone living with such an utterly sad perspective on how to live a human life :down:

 

[700UW]

Okay 767jetz, considering:
Pay=40% cut, 737-300 Captain to F/O + bankruptcy rates negiotiated by ALPA with NO SNAPBACKS!
Attrition=St. Nic took care of that...lost 17 years, now junior to someone who was not even hired when I was a Captain here at USAirways.
Work Rules=there aren't any, working 19-21 days per month.
retirement=long gone.

Why should ALPA stay? Card mailed.

Did your group not ratify every concessionary agreement put before them?

Dont blame the association, blame yourself and your fellow pilots who passed the concessions everytime.

Cant believe you all never changed your MEC and leadership after they gave your pensions away without a membership vote!

 

[dariencc]

Did your group not ratify every concessionary agreement put before them?

Dont blame the association, blame yourself and your fellow pilots who passed the concessions everytime.

Cant believe you all never changed your MEC and leadership after they gave your pensions away without a membership vote!

I guess it's true that a broken clock is right twice a day!
Can't argue with this post. When you're right, you're right.

Thankfully, it looks like this pilot group and some of its slower "leaders" have learned their lessons and wised up.

 

[767jetz]

Okay 767jetz, considering:
Pay=40% cut, 737-300 Captain to F/O + bankruptcy rates negiotiated by ALPA with NO SNAPBACKS!
Why should ALPA stay? Card mailed.

Um, that was negotiated by your own representatives. It had nothing to with ALPA National.
We all took it in the shorts during bankruptcy. Kinda like having a gun to your head.

But the recent rhetoric about USAPA has nothing to do with previous contracts. It is misguided attempt to get out of binding arbitration. That's all it is. And in the end it will expose both the East and West to many pitfalls, including a bankrupt union. Meanwhile there is meaningful and significant improvements in quality of life available through the JNC.

If you are really willing to risk it all with the false hope that somehow you can avoid the binding award, then no one will convince you otherwise. And that certainly is everyone's prerogative. (Even EastUS!) But you also must accept responsibility for your decision if the outcome is not what you had hoped for. Try as many East pilots do, you'll have no one to blame but yourselves.

Since there are still people sitting on the fence, and people like USA320pilot and EyeInTheSky continue to try to influence their choice, it can only be expected that others will continue to voice the opposing arguments for the same purpose.

Whatever happens, I believe the end game is approaching quickly and we will see where the cards fall very soon.

 

[EastUS]

If you are really willing to risk it all.....

That seems to be an alien concept to you. Do you actually know of anything significant in all of human history that's been achieved otherwise?

 

[USA320Pilot]

Junebug,

You have been proven before to not only misrepresent information, but to flat out lie and you're doing it again.

Junebug said: "And Prater did not tell anyone that about "stewing" in anything.

USA320pilot responds: I talked to a buddy of mine who told him this directly. What is interesting is how would you know what was said, where you there?

Junebug said: "I've talked to a buddy of mine whose close to Prater and he said he was fed up with the east's nonsense and he was going to do what he should have done in May. This has been backed up with his latest email the was sent out to all east and west pilots."

USA320Pilot responds: Wrong again. Doug Parker is very concerned about the situation at hand and he knows he cannot put the two airlines together because the US Airways pilots will never vote for a new contract if it triggers the Nicolau Award.

Junebug said: "As for USAPA, I understand that their money situation is becoming quite dire and they have resorted to begging. Cards are great, but you need money to make it all work."

USA320Pilot responds: Wrong again. It does not take a lot of money to operate via the Internet or by word-of-mouth. And, when you and others are accessed to help fund USAPA next quarter the USAPA treasury will grow.

Moreover, many successful independent unions have started with nothing but debt. By contrast, USAPA is operating in the black and anticipated dues flow will more than cover our financial needs. Remember, we will not have an enormous bureaucracy in Washington, D.C. to support.

According to USAPA, "We have enough to do the initial work to get to a representational dispute determination. We will need more to conduct an effective campaign for election (the last mailing cost over $3K) and also for the legal advice we are getting. We have the premier law firm in this area of law; Lee Seham’s father was the man who represented the APA pilots in 1962 when they left ALPA. That case went to the Supreme Court and APA prevailed. Bottom line, until we win the election and start receiving dues."

Junebug said: "And, it is yet to be determined whether or not we are a SBU. I'm sure USAPA knows how badly the east has pissed off their feeders. Enough so that they're willing to do anything to get even - even dillute those 2400 cards. Ask about this scenario during your next 10 hour phone call with USAPA."

USA320Pilot responds: You're wrong on two counts here. Yesterday Piedmont Chairman Gordon Daniels addressed the MEC and I know exactly what was said. Daniels is courting the MEC to create flow through support. And, my conversation was not on the phone with Stephen Bradford because we sat next to each other from PIT-SFO & a return, as well as spend 24 hours together in SFO.

As far as the wholly owned pilots voting, they’re not a part of our union’s and they will not have time to be a part of the group before the USAPA vote takes place.

Junebug said: "And, its an iron-clad guarantee, that Nicolau will stand along with our respective CBA (LOA93 in your case) should a new union come on property."

USA320Pilot comments: The majority of US Airways pilots have no problem with LOA 93 remaining in place because it prevents the Nicolau Award from being implemented. Do the East pilots want a pay raise? Absolutely, and they are going to keep fighting until they get one. However, according to Lee Seham The Nicolau is the product of an ALPA-mandated process and ALPA is bound to defend that process. The ALPA-US Airways MEC cannot prevail in its current litigation because it voluntarily submitted to the ALPA-mandated process. The USAPA, however, is not bound by ALPA's Constitution and cannot be subjected to ALPA’s political control. USAPA will assert its right under the Railway Labor Act to negotiate over the terms of any seniority integration. Under the RLA, seniority is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

USA320Pilot concludes: Junebug, it's over for the AWA pilots and if you're not nice you might get stapled to the bottom of the new seniority list.

Now I believe USAPA will be fair to the AWA pilots follwoing union "imposition". According to USAPA, "We have a federally protected right under the RLA to change union representatives. A successor union, such as the USAPA, has the legal right to negotiate changes in the terms and conditions of employment, including seniority. Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness."

By the way, I just received an email from an ALPA EVP who said, "Solutions are available, but they will require compromises on both sides. Otherwise, the award is useless, and both sides lose. There are ways to mitigate the effects of the award; vacating the award is next to, if not impossible. I think both sides need to reasonably assess their options. I think the motivation of ALPA trying to find solutions has been greatly misconstrued. If these attempts fail, those with the most to lose are not other ALPA pilots or ALPA National, it is the US Airways pilots themselves. There has been progress, but the pace has been discouraging - at times."

Junebug, since the AWA MEC has just begun to negotiate a settlement to the Nicolau Award problem, with behind-the-scenes activity, I believe the pace of these negotiations must dramatically pick up or you will be forced to pay USAPA union dues or be placed in bad standing around the first of the year.

By the way, when do you start your fourth year of AWA service and how is your advancement going? What's interesting is that the AWA pilots could found (and maybe still can) a way to capture and share some of the seniority list growth, but people like you and your MEC are creating a war you cannot win because the US Airways pilots will control all voting.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[hp_fa]

Do any folks here actually believe that a federal court will utilize a wide degree of reasonableness in any way other then to affirm a full and binding arbitration award?

 

[EastUS]

Do any folks here actually believe that a federal court will utilize a wide degree of reasonableness in any way other then to affirm a full and binding arbitration award?

The only thing certain about any future courtroom outcome...is it's uncertainty, and the fact that any court process tends to be rather time consuming at the very least.

 

[700UW]

You are wrong once again 320.

Case Examples of a change in representation that does not give a new union the right to change any arbitration awards nor the CBA until the CBA becomes amendable.

UAL, M&R go from IAM to AMFA, AMFA only by law can enforce the old IAM CBA until it became amendable.

NW, M&R gro from IAM to AMFA, AMFA only by law can enforce the old IAM CBA until it became amendable.

WN, M&R gro from IBT to AMFA, AMFA only by law can enforce the old IBT CBA until it became amendable.

NW FAs go from IBT to PFAA, PFAA only by law can enforce the old IBT CBA until it became amendable. (And the PFAA Attornies were Lee Seeham.)

NW FAs go from PFAA to AFA, AFA only by law can enforce the old PFAA CBA until it became amendable.

Don't the the TRUTH, the FACTS and the RLA get in the way of your complete FASLE FILLED posts.

Either you or whomever you are getting your false information from is lying to get cards signed.