ALPA Thread 1/10 to 1/17 ALL ALPA/USAPA Discussed Here

[luvn737s]

We are happy to report that the USAPA office lease has been signed for our preferred facility just west of the South Park Mall in Charlotte.

South Park, eh? Priceless.

Does Bradford go around yelling "Repect my authoriti!"

 

[luvn737s]

This goes equal for the west "children" who taunt, gloat and otherwise engage in unprofessional behavior.

I assume you mean the west pilots who have continued to work for the betterment of all US pilots by following the prescribed rules and demonstrating a willingness to unilaterally remain engaged in the collective bargaining process. We are talking about the same west pilots who have not diverted precious energy away from joint negotiations to pursue a divisive agenda. We are talking about the same group that chose to put forth a reasonable strategy for a fair integration rather than relying on a Hail Mary pass that was picked off and run back for a touchdown.

These are the people, right?

 

[EastUS]

Come on, Piney - meaningful compromise? From the East? Are you kidding? Why not just wish for a meaningful compromise with every other entity under the sun which subverts the rule of law and promotes chaos over discourse? No, I can't sit here and let you try to lower the West down to the East's level. There is one party nearly 100% at fault and it's NOT the West.

Fine. "Righteous Positon" yet once more touted, luvn737's..same drill....Both sides have ample ammunition for mutual contempt. Will there ever be some period within which we can atually start talking?

 

[nostradamus]

Like Miami, the actions in LGA were indefensible, period.

The Flight 5050 crew started there day in the early afternoon, the accident occurred 10 hours later. You are accusing people of crimes you have no proof of, this is indefensible.


Flt 5050 facts

 

[EastUS]

So, in light of all of this, why should there be any attempt to compromise after obtaining a result that the other side could have at least meaningfully tried to avoid?

Why seek compromise now? No reason whatsoever, just so long as everyone's perfectly happy as things are I suppose......?

 

[aquagreen73s]

The Flight 5050 crew started there day in the early afternoon, the accident occurred 10 hours later. You are accusing people of crimes you have no proof of, this is indefensible.


Flt 5050 facts

No proof? You yourself admitted they left the scene and were in hiding for nearly two days! Oh my Lord in Heaven. I will go through this one more time: they left the scene of a fatal accident. That act by itself is a crime. It's understandable why people can't make sense of the IRS code, but what we're talking about here is so elementary that there isn't one justification in the universe for the act. I will vociferously condemn that act today and into eternity because we're talking about a basic precept of ethics. Furthermore, we live in a country that still has Fourth and Fifth Amendment protections for those suspected of wrongdoing. Our system would disintegrate overnight were it not for a set of rules which balances the state's interest to investigate against the individual's liberty interests. The obligations of all citizens for having this set of rules is that participation is not discretionary - it's mandatory. If an individual doesn't understand this basic basic concept, then too bad for them. But it doesn't change the fact that running from the law is never acceptable. Finally, unlike you and several others, nobody is trying to impute the misbehavior onto the entire group as a whole. But the naked goal of the few Easties who constantly dig up the Miami incident is obvious: the aim is to use an isolated incident of misbehavior to assail the character of all West pilots.

 

[nostradamus]

No proof? You yourself admitted they left the scene and were in hiding for nearly two days! Oh my Lord in Heaven. I will go through this one more time: they left the scene of a fatal accident.

You are saying I admitted they left the scene and were "hiding for two days". Please provide a quote were I stated this.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You are saying I admitted they left the scene and were "hiding for two days". Please provide a quote were I stated this.

Ok then, you must not understand the facts so let me enlighten you: they left the scene of a fatal accident and their whereabouts were unknown for nearly two days. Local police were among the first on the accident scene. One of the things cops are empowered to do by our Constitution is to investigate. NTSB regulations clearly recognize this and accomodate this police power. Perhaps we'll never know exactly why they left, but their reasoning is immaterial because the focus is on the act and nothing else. Much like Hughes and Cloyd - the focus is (and should be) on their act. There is no need to speculate as to motive in either case. But like Miami, we can draw some pretty basic conclusions from their type of behavior: if you have nothing to hide, then why run? Surely everyone who is educated enough to fly commercial airplanes for a living also has a basic understanding of the Constitutional protections which exist. But even if they don't, the system can not and will not tolerate running from police. And just to clarify - remaining unavailable with full knowledge that authorities are seeking to question is tantamount to running. Call it constructive running. . .

 

[luvn737s]

If George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and their allies had "continued to work for the betterment of all US pilots by following the prescribed rules and demonstrating a willingness to unilaterally remain engaged in the collective bargaining process. " you and I would be singing God Save the Queen so that argument is out the window.

Drama club meets after school in the auditorium.

 

[nostradamus]

Ok then, you must not understand the vfacts so let me enlighten you: they left the scene of a fatal accident and their whereabouts were unknown for nearly two days. Local police were among the first on the accident scene. One of the things cops are empowered to do by our Constitution is to investigate. NTSB regulations clearly recognize this and accomodate this police power. Perhaps we'll never know exactly why they left, but their reasoning is immaterial because the focus is on the act and nothing else. Much like Hughes and Cloyd - the focus is (and should be) on their act. There is no need to speculate as to motive in either case. But like Miami, we can draw some pretty basic conclusions from their type of behavior: if you have nothing to hide, then why run? Surely everyone who is educated enough to fly commercial airplanes for a living also has a basic understanding of the Constitutional protections which exist. But even if they don't, the system can not and will not tolerate running from police. And just to clarify - remaining unavailable with full knowledge that authorities are seeking to question is tantamount to running. Call it constructive running. . .

Please show proof of the quote where you said I admitted they left the scene and were hiding. This is a second request.

Post accident advice for pilots

Please show proof that the pilots were convicted of violating laws regarding their requirements after an accident.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Please show proof of the quote where you said I admitted they left the scene and were hiding. This is a second request.

Post accident advice for pilots

Please show proof that the pilots were convicted of violating laws regarding their requirements after an accident.

Nos, you're looking silly now. They left the scene and were unavailable for nearly two days. That is well established in the record. I can't explain why they weren't prosecuted, but then again I can't explain the result of the football player from Brentwood either. What is certain is that your two guys somehow won the legal lottery because if that same incident happened today and the two incident pilots did what they did, I can guarantee the result will be different. If pilots today were involved in an accident that involved injuries and fatalities and subsequently left the scene, then being charged with leaving the scene of the accident would be the least of their concern. So I would strongly caution any pilot reading this thread that what happened in 1989 is not in any way applicable today. Perhaps the idea of treating an accident scene as a possible crime scene was an immature concept back then, but not now. If a cop can ask a pilot for a breathalyzer (see 91.17), then there is no doubt that Feds will recognize that power just as if the cop were demanding to question anybody, provided of course the situation has met the threshold requiremens of the Fourth and Fifth Amendment. Pilots are not immune from local law enforcement while executing their duties even though they are engaged in a field completely preempted by federal law. The issue isn't interstate commerce, but rather individual behavior, which local law enforcement is clearly empowered to investigate.

 

[nostradamus]

Nos, you're looking silly now. They left the scene and were unavailable for nearly two days. That is well established in the record. I can't explain why they weren't prosecuted, but then again I can't explain the result of the football player from Brentwood either. What is certain is that your two guys somehow won the legal lottery because if that same incident happened today and the two incident pilots did what they did, I can guarantee the result will be different. If pilots today were involved in an accident that involved injuries and fatalities and subsequently left the scene, then being charged with leaving the scene of the accident would be the least of their concern. So I would strongly caution any pilot reading this thread that what happened in 1989 is not in any way applicable today. Perhaps the idea of treating an accident scene as a possible crime scene was an immature concept back then, but not now. If a cop can ask a pilot for a breathalyzer (see 91.17), then there is no doubt that Feds will recognize that power just as if the cop were demanding to question anybody, provided of course the situation has met the threshold requiremens of the Fourth and Fifth Amendment. Pilots are not immune from local law enforcement while executing their duties even though they are engaged in a field completely preempted by federal law. The issue isn't interstate commerce, but rather individual behavior, which local law enforcement is clearly empowered to investigate.

It does not matter what you think. You misquoted me and accused other pilots of violating laws without providing any proof, period.

No further witnesses your Honor.

 

[aquagreen73s]

It does not matter what you think. You misquoted me and accused other pilots of violating laws without providing any proof, period.

No further witnesses your Honor.

Nos, a serious question: are you lucid? Leaving the scene is pretty easy to prove, and the evidence is in the record and admitted by eveyone but you that they left the scene of the fatal accident with the knowledge that authorities wanted to speak to them. That act is illegal in every jurisdiction in the United States. No inferences need to be drawn. What on Earth do you not understand?

 

[Phoenix]

As an outside observer I fail to see what the Cloyd case and the LGA incident have to do with the situation at hand.

Every time I read this thread my respect for pilots diminishes as I've observed CSR's, Rampers, Ticket agents, F/A's. almost any airline employee conduct themselves better than this bunch of spoiled brats. You all should be ashamed of yourself. Doug Parker must have a Woody the size of the Empire State Building from watching you self destruct.

Piney, Within hours of the Nic Award I posted that USAir was the new Eastern. With Eastern, many felt that things progressed too far for the mechanics to ever compromise.

The Nic was like Archduke Ferdinand being shot. Once the ALPA president subscribed to the position that seniority must be abandoned to the benefit of others then all opportunity for discussion of "mutual benefits" ceased to exist. None will exist until a union that subscribes to seniority is instituted. ALPA has chosen not to be that union.

Back in the days of Wolf, you declared that employees hadn't seen anything when it came to how bad the fleecing was going to get. Your predictions ring true. It is safe to predict that if AAA allows ALPA to stay, the pilots have not seen the things ALPA is capable of.

 

[prechilill]

Once the ALPA president subscribed to the position that seniority must be abandoned to the benefit of others then all opportunity for discussion of "mutual benefits" ceased to exist.

The "ALPA president" I imagine you are referring to is John Prater? It doesn't matter what John Prater's ideas are about seniority- it has no bearing on Nicolau award- or any arbitration award. The seniority award in our case was developed by three people- two of which you had direct input in their appointment. John Prater did not develop the Nicolau award and had no influence on it.