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Same old tired story. We're not underfunded, or under supported.

But so far you haven't incurred any real expenses, such as litigation. "Funding" is a relative term.


A new USAPA negotiated contract can and will withstand any challenges.

A classic example of an invalid conclusion. You need to answer WHY it will withstand any challenges. By the way, you also need to answer WHEN a new USAPA contract will be TA'd because don't forget, you're starting all over again. PLUS, you're still subject to the transition agreement which means the West gets the ultimate veto. Or, are you going to insist once again that the basic obligations of contract law are not applicable in this situation...


So in effect, your wishful thinking about us going away will not happen. At worst ALPA is re-elected as the bargaining agent and we're still in the same mess with no end in sight.

Any WHY won't the mess go away? Because the transition agreement specifically requires East and West to independently approve the joint contract - a fact that won't change if there is a successor to ALPA. If Seaham disagrees, then I'D LOVE TO READ HIS LEGAL REASONING - that is, why the Transition Agreement would suddenly not apply to the Company, East pilots and West pilots. Legal conclusions mean little without an underlying rule and analysis/application. Third hand legal conclusions by lay persons mean even less. How many jurisdictions are the usapa pilot volunteers admitted to practice in? I ask this because all we've seen from usapa to date are statements passed off as legal facts by lay pilots. The one letter from Seaham is little more than a recap of a 7th circuit case with a conclusion attached at the end of the letter. The gaping hole is coincidentally the most important part - the legal reasoning which would convincingly explain why: (1) the successorship doctrine would not apply; and (2) that the United case has any relevance in a situation where one of the parties agreed to arbitrate. These are critical issues which must be answered if there is any honesty or transparency in usapa. For what it's worth, I'm not speaking from a legal vacuum -I'm admitted in California and Arizona. I'm waiting for Seaham's reply.
 
The window of opportunity to gain contract improvements is gone. All we have left now is a civil war.

AWA320: "Nope usair will be left out of the consolidation rounds and will finally go away and good riddance too as their diease mentality should never be allowed affect the rest of the industry!!!"

Alpo's had over two years to "gain contract improvements", and failed miserably. There's no actual reasons to assume that contract enhancements are now impossible.

While AWA320's usual "reasoning" demands the imminent extinction of this carrier..there's nothing presently to be found that supports that happy theory either.

Sheesh...stop with the "I want my Nic".."Without my Nic....the whole world's gonna' explode!!"...and "I'm holding my breath 'till I turn blue" BS....it's embarrassing to see.
 
quote AquaGreen "Any WHY won't the mess go away? Because the transition agreement specifically requires East and West to independently approve the joint contract - a fact that won't change if there is a successor to ALPA."

I agree with you, and therefore there will not be grounds for a lawsuit against USAPA because the West will never be "harmed".
 
quote AquaGreen "Any WHY won't the mess go away? Because the transition agreement specifically requires East and West to independently approve the joint contract - a fact that won't change if there is a successor to ALPA."

I agree with you, and therefore there will never be grounds for a lawsuit against USAPA because the West will never be harmed.

And the East will be stuck with LOA93 for several more years. Doesn't matter to the West since the East was going to get 95% of the contract improvements in the first place. But your statement does illuminate the true objective of usapa - to prevent Nicolau from being implemented. Whatever effect Nic has on the East captains, it's incredibly small as compared to the impact of LOA 93 on those captains. Since usapa can't do anything to mitigate the effects of LOA 93 on half of your pilots, then it goes to reason that usapa is not "for" the East captains. What's more, since Nic has zero effect on the newhires but those newhires are subject to LOA 93, then there is nothing in it for them to go usapa. What usapa boils down to is a last ditch, feeble effort to overturn a failed attempt by the East to use Lady Justice as a lottery ticket for some bitter and aged East copilots. When that didn't happen, Bradford and a few others lauched their crusade. And that is the short but simple truth of usapa - improve the life of all pilots unless: (1) you are an east captain living under LOA93; (2) a newhire; or (3) a West pilot. Other than that, I guess they do stand for fairness and justice for ALL! I must say though that usapa has a very unique definition of "all!"
 
Here comes the Wrench in usapa's perfect plan. Bear care to comment

Captain John H. Prater
President
Air Line Pilots Association
1625 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20036

Captain John McIlvenna
Chairman
America West Master Executive Council
Air Line Pilots Association
432 N. 44th Street
Two Gateway, Suite 340
Phoenix, Arizona 85008

Captain Jack Stephan
Chairman
US Airways Master Executive Council
Air Line Pilots Association
One Thorn Run Center, Suite 400
1187 Thorn Run Extension
Coraopolis, Pennsylvania 15108

Re: Renegotiation of Seniority List

Gentlemen:


I write at the Association's request to comment on a letter ofthe law firm
advising USAPA, a group that seeks to displace ALPA as representative ofthe US
Airways pilots.

USAPA has announced that, if certified, it will seek to set aside the Nicolau
award in order to negotiate with US Airways a seniority list based on "date-of-hire with
reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot's un-merged career
expectations." The USAPA law firm has asserted that "it would be very difficult for
USAPA opponents to undermine" such a new list as proposed by USAPA, basing their
conclusion on two cases involving ALPA. These cases are Air Line Pilots Association,
Int'l v. 0 'Neill, 499 U.S. 65 (1991) and Rakestraw v. United Airlines, Inc., 981 F.2d 1524
(7th Cir. 1992).

The USAPA law firm's opinion is based on an incorrect reading of these
cases, and a correct reading ofthe cases shows that there is no basis for them to express
such confidence in their opinion. First, their opinion stresses that in 0 'Neill, the Supreme
Court upheld the negotiated terms of a strike settlement as "reasonable." The USAPA
law firm does not mention, however, that the Court in 0 'Neill specifically drew a
distinction between the situation in that case and the situation where a union seeks to
overturn an agreed seniority system. In fact, the 0 'Neill decision stressed that the
agreement in question "provided the order and mechanism for the reintegration ofthe
returning strikers but did not permanently alter the seniority system." 0 'Neill, 499 U.S.
at 81 (emphasis added).

In the present situation, in contrast to 0 'Neill, the parties are already governed
by a collectively-bargained agreement that requires US Airways to accept the seniority
list that resulted from the ALPA seniority integration procedure, and, as USAPA has long
admitted, ifit becomes the representative it will inherit that agreement. IfUSAPA seeks
to "permanently alter the seniority system," it will obviously raise the very issue that the
Supreme Court distinguished in 0 'Neill.

The other case relied on by the USAPA law firm is the Seventh Circuit U.S.
Court ofAppeals decision in Rakestraw v. United Airlines. In that case, ALPA
successfully defended DFR claims brought by United replacement pilots after ALPA
secured United's agreement to restore the seniority ofthe Group of 570 striking pilots to
the seniority they would have had but for the strike. Rakestraw recognized that seniority
is an element of an agreement rather than a fixed right or commodity, but it did not
simply grant a free hand to unions to renegotiate seniority terms. Rather, the court held
that "a union may not juggle the seniority roster for no reason other than to advance one
group of employees over another," and the union may seek to negotiate an adjustment in
a seniority list only if the adjustment "rationally promote the aggregate welfare of
employees in the bargaining unit." 981 F.2d at 1535.

Rakestraw illustrates why the USAPA law firm incorrectly expresses
confidence in its views that "it would be very difficult" to defeat a renegotiated seniority
list. As the Rakestraw court observed, ALPA's objectives in that case were "to reduce
the advantages enjoyed by the replacements, and thus to strengthen the hand oforganized
labor in future conflicts with management" and "to restore the seniority system that
United had long used," thus recognizing that "stability is itself a legitimate objective."
981 F.2d at 1535. These objectives, noted the court, promoted the aggregate welfare of
the pilot group.

In the case of US Airways, however, USAPA seeks to trade one group of very
dissatisfied pilots for another. The pre-existing system is the one already provided by the
Transition Agreement and longstanding pre-existing collective bargaining agreements the
agreement by US Airways to implement the seniority list that resulted from ALPA
merger policy. USAPA does not seek to restore this system but to overturn it, and
thereby to "advance one group of employees over another." These objectives, in contrast
to those ofALPA in Rakestraw, cannot be described as "promoting the aggregate
welfare."

The Seventh Circuit has decided another case that also illustrates the difficulty
with the USAPA law firm's analysis and that the law firm did not mention. The case was
Air Wisconsin Pilots Protection Committee v. Sanderson, 909 F.2d 213 (7th Cir. 1990).
In that case, some Air Wisconsin pilots, who opposed a seniority award under ALPA
merger policy, sought to replace ALPA in order to attempt to commence negotiations
with the company to achieve a different result. The Seventh Circuit stated that
an attempt by a majority ofthe employees in a collective
bargaining unit to gang up against a minority of employees in
the fashion apparently envisaged by the plaintiffs could itself
be thought a violation ofthe duty of fair representation by the
union that the majority used as its tool.

909 F.2d at 217. This statement, too, demonstrates that there is no basis for the USAPA
law firm's confidence in its views.

There are two other aspects ofthe USAPA law firm's opinion that should be
addressed. First is their view that there would be no basis for judicial reliefbefore a new
list is actually implemented and that during the litigation the "status quo" would be the
new list. This view, too, ignores essential facts. Given the near-impossibility of figuring
out in hindsight who would have earned what under the original list versus a new list, a
court would have grounds to grant a preliminary injunction before a new list is
implemented. In this context, the court could look on the Nicolau list as the status quo to
remain in place until completion ofthe litigation.

The second remaining aspect ofthe law firm's letter is their opinion that
"employers are very open to re-adjusting seniority in a cost-neutral manner where it is
conducive to labor peace." This view, too, is not supported by Rakestraw. In that case,
as the court observed, restoring the seniority ofthe Group of570 did in fact promote
labor peace, but, even so, according to the court, management agreed to this restoration
only on the condition of obtaining from the pilot group $200 million in value. 981 F.2d
at 1529. In the US Airways situation, however, an effort to change the seniority list is
unlikely to be "conducive to labor peace," and both USAPA and company would be
probable targets oflitigation, so it is even less likely in this case than in Rakestraw that
such a change could be pursued in a manner that is "cost-neutral" to either the pilots or
the company.
Yours truly,

~a~.... Michael E. Abram
cc: Jonathan Cohen
Bruce York
Roland Wilder
Jeffrey Freund
 
What usapa boils down to is a last ditch, feeble effort to overturn a failed attempt by the East to use Lady Justice as a lottery ticket for some bitter and aged East copilots.

And that about sums it up. USAPA, a union fathered by a collection of angry career first officers holed up in the back of a van somewhere in northern Virginia.
 
A fair question. One "might" cynically assume that, as proper Alpoids, they didn't find it in Alpos best interests to do so. :blink:
So the decision was made by the East pilots on the MEC who were elected by East pilots, and not ALPA national, right?
 
If the root is bad, so is the fruit.

Nonsense sir. That might imply that the fine Alpo vineyards out west are suffering from a crop of sour grapes. There's also implication within your statement that they might actually be, as or more as "full of it" as the ardent west posters accuse the east/USAPA to be. Sigh...We all know that Alpo's a purely noble enterprise that would never slant/twist/distort/outright lie for their own purposes ever.
 
And the East will be stuck with LOA93 for several more years. Doesn't matter to the West since the East was going to get 95% of the contract improvements in the first place. But your statement does illuminate the true objective of usapa - to prevent Nicolau from being implemented. Whatever effect Nic has on the East captains, it's incredibly small as compared to the impact of LOA 93 on those captains. Since usapa can't do anything to mitigate the effects of LOA 93 on half of your pilots, then it goes to reason that usapa is not "for" the East captains. What's more, since Nic has zero effect on the newhires but those newhires are subject to LOA 93, then there is nothing in it for them to go usapa. What usapa boils down to is a last ditch, feeble effort to overturn a failed attempt by the East to use Lady Justice as a lottery ticket for some bitter and aged East copilots. When that didn't happen, Bradford and a few others lauched their crusade. And that is the short but simple truth of usapa - improve the life of all pilots unless: (1) you are an east captain living under LOA93; (2) a newhire; or (3) a West pilot. Other than that, I guess they do stand for fairness and justice for ALL! I must say though that usapa has a very unique definition of "all!"

Well as an "East Captain" myself?..I'm clearly fine with dumping Alpo. I truly believe that it's in the best interests of pilots everywhere to do just that. As for Nic? I consider that a full-blown atrocity to all notions of actual unionism, (and even sanity itself) and am quite happy to endure whatever it takes to not toss my "junior" comrades under some transient AWA bus. For at least some of us...It's NOT entirely ALL ABOUT ME!!!, as it seems to be out west. Your only "hope" for advancing the Alpo-Nic insanity present out west is that they're enough self obsessed, and well situated individuals out east to buy off on it. By your own estimations..that pretty much has to involve mostly captains in excellent seniority situations. Even if all said individuals turned to your thinking...there's just not enough of them that'd be "Nic Free" to fill your dance book desires come election time. We'll certainly see in the fairly near future.

On another note: Given that there's no longer fervid west touting of any instant "great contract"....Ummm...what's the actual westie selling point(s) for the east keeping Alpo again? 😉
Let me see here: The east could "benefit" somehow from being under Nic and Alpo's tender care during any future Alpo set merger? Prater needs a newer limo and better home in DC? Seriously..What have you got left to try and sell? Hideous and devastating litigation fantasies?...Yawn. West credibility as to future development's not at any all time high out here. See listings under "You wont even get 200 cards"/"A little bird told me that you're several hundred cards short"/etc. You folks haven't been right yet, save for earlier mutual agreement that Alpo would embrace Nic. Perhaps more varitions on "The corporate Sky is Falling!!".."and it's all the fault of those evil easties!!"?...equally bogus, and same yawn...

'll ask of you in full earnestness: Even assuming some utterly self-interested perspective out here.... What's actually in it for the east to keep Alpo at this point?
 
AWA320: "Nope usair will be left out of the consolidation rounds and will finally go away and good riddance too as their diease mentality should never be allowed affect the rest of the industry!!!"

Alpo's had over two years to "gain contract improvements", and failed miserably. There's no actual reasons to assume that contract enhancements are now impossible.

True but only because of constant sense of poor play! This is nothing new to you easties as LOA 93 is a living testament to your inability to resemble anything fair. In other words Eastie, you had the chance for something better yet YOU allowed the RC4 to damage your careers and you did nothing about it now you think that I am going to just had you over the keys to my career? Think again!!!

While AWA320's usual "reasoning" demands the imminent extinction of this carrier..there's nothing presently to be found that supports that happy theory either.

Again your inability to read what's right in front of your face!! Upper management last month set themselves up with golden parachutes while you argue about how it was in the good ol' days. Clueeless simply clueless

Sheesh...stop with the "I want my Nic".."Without my Nic....the whole world's gonna' explode!!"...and "I'm holding my breath 'till I turn blue" BS....it's embarrassing to see.

What's embarrassing to the entire industry is the east attitude! No one respects your childishness in this industry but you. You have managed to make us all look bad while once again turning down a better offer for what's behind door number three! It's not about nic it's about honoring your obligations but considering the east mentality I expect nothing!!!

A little something for the memory impaired...

HISTORY



I am copying (unedited) a letter from September of 2005 that was written by Mike Cross (former CLT LEC Chairman) and Lance Svendsen who was your LEC Vice Chairman (who was re-elected to a second term). What if find interesting about this letter is that it was written prior to our current situation yet it speaks to it very clearly. It was written by folks who were there in person.



The letter that follows describes the events that led up to our getting LOA 93. Philadelphia and Pittsburgh used the roll call vote to turn down each contract offer hoping to go to the bankruptcy judge to get a better deal. History is replete with examples of the terrible and pitiful “deals†meted out by bankruptcy judges. Bankruptcy judges are not judges in the traditional sense (weighing two sides of a case and “splitting the baby†http://www.wisegeek.com/what-does-it-mean-...t-the-baby.htm). Bankruptcy judges have only one function: protect creditors. In most cases, the judge would take away the baby’s food, clothing and parents and give the baby to the creditors with no regard for the welfare of the baby. This is the infamous 1113E motion. (when I “googled†1113e bankruptcy, most of the first references were about airlines)



The short version is that the MEC was controlled via the “roll call†vote by the PIT and PHL representatives (known as the Roll Call Four or the RC4) The RC4 wanted control over the negotiating process so they dismantled an experienced and qualified negotiating team and replaced them with inexperienced and unqualified negotiators. (the political purpose was to have the new inexperienced negotiators report directly to the RC4 rather than the entire MEC) ALPA “national†tried to prevent our MEC from making such an error, but were unsuccessful. Each time a contract was presented to the MEC, the RC4 rejected it hoping for a better deal from the court. Finally, when the deal got bad enough, the RC4 gave in. But the clock had expired. This forced the other eight MEC members to put LOA 93 out to us for a vote.



Those of you who came to the special MEC meeting in CLT prior to LOA 93 remember a room full of lawyers and advisors. Everybody in the room, except the Roll Call Four, was trying to save this pilot group from LOA 93 or the 1113E motion. Everybody was trying to convince the RC4 to stay away from the bankruptcy judge. Your future rested with those four representatives. What follows is that history. This is a long letter, but it bears reading.

 
A little something for the memory impaired...

Well..shucks then...I guess there's truly great reasons to keep Alpo after all...Umm..what were/are they again? :blink:

I do apologize, as I've not your "Clueeless simply clueless" level of literacy with which to make full sense out of your postings. Please consider that in the future, and strive for simpler verbage for all of us "impaired" sorts......

PS: I've not the necessary arrogance required for assigning myself as proper spokesman for "the entire industry" or even all the east people for that matter...so I'll naturally defer to your "wisdom" 😉
 
Well..shucks then...I guess there's truly great reasons to keep Alpo after all...Umm..where were/are they again? :blink:
What are the great reasons for voting for USAPA? :blink:
 
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