E
EastUS
Guest
No need...One must properly dress in field boots around here...the Alpoid BS gets pretty deep at times.
ALPA Thread 1/10 to 1/17 ALL ALPA/USAPA Discussed Here
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
- Status
No need...One must properly dress in field boots around here...the Alpoid BS gets pretty deep at times.
E
EastUS
Guest
This..from their own site:
"Volunteers Don’t Come “Freeâ€
One of ALPA’s biggest expense categories is the cost of supporting the vast network of pilots who volunteer their time and energies for ALPA safety, security, bargaining, and representation activities. The Association simply could not function without them. Only one pilot member is an ALPA employee getting a paycheck—the President. ALPA’s President must be independent from any one airline and responsible only to the Association’s members.
Out of both fairness and practicality, volunteers cannot be expected to foot all their own losses when performing ALPA business. Besides obvious out-of-pocket expenses, some volunteers may have to drop trips in order to perform certain functions. Long ago, ALPA recognized the need to make up for some or all of its volunteers’ lost income (always with their MEC’s support).
Flight pay loss is essential
Flight pay loss (FPL) expenditures are carefully monitored and controlled, and ALPA’s policies require each MEC to report flight pay loss expenditures to the membership on a regular basis. ALPA pays approximately one-fifth of its total dues income ($22 million in 2006 alone) toward flight pay loss. Only about 14% of that amount is to allow pilots to participate in the work of ALPA’s National Committees. The rest is paid by MECs for their pilots to work on the issues that are important to their individual pilot groups. In other words, these expenses were authorized by your local leaders to support your pilot group’s activities. Ask any volunteer: A pilot union cannot be effective without extensive use of FPL."
"Ask any volunteer:A pilot union cannot be effective without extensive use of FPL." 😉
b737fo
Senior
- Joined
- May 8, 2007
- Messages
- 288
- Reaction score
- 31
Nothing like character assassination on usaviation.com
Never let the facts get in the way of the USAPA spin machines. I looked at the schedule of the AWA ALPA members on this committee and guess what? No FPL for them for working with the ACPC. They still have full time lines of flying while volunteering their time.
It is pretty easy to get on this board hiding behind our anonymous logins while defaming the character of many fellow pilots. Some people have lost some credibility with these false accusations and/or assumptions.
The USAPA BS can pile just as high EastUS
E
EastUS
Guest
Nothing like character assassination on usaviation.com
Never let the facts get in the way of the USAPA spin machines. I looked at the schedule of the AWA ALPA members on this committee and guess what? No FPL for them for working with the ACPC. They still have full time lines of flying while volunteering their time.
It is pretty easy to get on this board hiding behind our anonymous logins while defaming the character of many fellow pilots. Some people have lost some credibility with these false accusations and/or assumptions.
The USAPA BS can pile just as high EastUS
Understood. I asked the question...that means a "question" = ? Would you please note whether or not those folks are within the 22 listed on the Alpo site? I'd seriously be considerably pleased to know that those are people not sucking up dues money.
PS: How's it "defaming the character" of ANYONE to wonder about this? Aren't you the least bit interested in where your dues money actually goes? Is there something "shamefull" about participating in that group? or: Is paticipation in some Alpo "process" somehow some "sacred mystery" that's not suitable for financial exploration? Sigh..good thing I do wear washable boots around here 😉 Talk about hitting an Alpo nerve... 😉
Phoenix
Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2003
- Messages
- 8,584
- Reaction score
- 7,430
"without extensive use of FPL (at the Marriott Resort)."
The excessive or questionable use of FPL is only a small symptom of the root problem, in my view. ALPA volunteers are entitled to extensive FPL, especially the more mature ones. After all they are smarter than the regular line pilots and all that brain trust requires richer food and softer beds (Marriott is know for their softer beds, I'm told.)
"ALPA knows better. Trust us we got it."
The ACPC has three "ALPA-knows-better-pilots" who gave away the pension without a membership vote, who accepted cooked books supported by the ALPA list of experts.
All that chateaubriand and sauvignon to feed the braintrust and look at what the pilots get! The ACPC with an encore of the pension giveaway trio?
Please.. don't tell them to stop signing. Bravo! Bravo! More! More!
E
EastUS
Guest
b737fo
Senior
- Joined
- May 8, 2007
- Messages
- 288
- Reaction score
- 31
Really the part about defamation of character was directed for those who posted on here what was falsely labeled as fact not the question you posed EastUS.
As to your last question, I have ascertained that the following of the 22 listed in ACPC communications are not off in ALPA land on FPL: BB JB JJ DW.
TB is on full time FPL but has been prior to the formation of the ACPC for other MEC work.
And you are right about hitting the nerve. I truly appreciate the work that the volunteers at AWA have done for ALPA and I will defend their integrity anytime there has been doubt cast without facts to back up the accusations.
Blue skies.
E
EastUS
Guest
Thanks for that info. I also respect people that give their time freely for their beliefs...whether or not I agree with said beliefs. I would very much like to know how/where to check and see who's on FPL within that group though. Even a block of scheduled flying's no warranty against drops for "Alpo business".
Phoenix
Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2003
- Messages
- 8,584
- Reaction score
- 7,430
Ask them? The reps? The pilots don't have to ask them. The pilots can make that decision on their own. I know. I know. Its hard to be weened from ALPA making the decisions.
Step back from the bottle.
Phoenix
Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2003
- Messages
- 8,584
- Reaction score
- 7,430
I am only one aware of one person on the committee that has publicy stated that he has taken FPL. Perhaps other have also expressed this. Perhaps the others would be willing to confirm if they have taken or have access to FPL. To suggest that ALPA has denied the others the same access to FPL would be to say that ALPA is not interested in being "fair and equitable."
But like I said, the FPL is really not the issue. FPL is necessary and good for many union requirements, like saving a union. The fact that three pension-give-away-pilots seem to be on the ACPC says a lot more.
Cactus737
Advanced
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2007
- Messages
- 188
- Reaction score
- 0
Long time no visit. I see I haven’t missed much.
Here’s my take on what’s going on:
1) The opposition towards ALPA from the East pilots seems to be almost exclusively specific to the way the AAA MEC operates. A few highlights:
a. FPL abuse. Doesn’t happen much here at AWA. But that’s because we don’t have two dozen people on full-time FPL like AAA does, we have a “FPL Policy†that prevents volunteers from double-dipping like the AAA volunteers do, and our MEC doesn’t hold 20 special meetings a year in a fancy hotel (they hold the meetings in the PHX office). According to my reps, the AAA MEC is almost $1 mil in debt, while AWA is not in debt. Sounds like an AAA problem, not an ALPA problem.
b. Screwing junior guys. AAA MEC has a long history of doing that. I read the garbage that Portale posts, and I see the gist of it is that his MEC promised him and the other MDA guys something they never planned to deliver (sound familiar? DOH?). Meanwhile, the AAA MEC runs a “DATE OF HIRE†campaign during the merger, and the AWA MEC runs a “SAVE DAVE†(our most junior pilot) campaign. Also, AWA had a long standing credit cap after our first furlough, and we assessed the membership after 9/11 to pay furloughee COBRA benefits. The “screwing the junior guy legacy†is definitely specific AAA, not ALPA.
c. Roll-call voting. That problem will be extinct once the AAA / AWA MEC’s merge, but even if it weren’t, we could make changes to the ALPA C&BL to change to a seniority block or other system. AWA changed the C&BL at least twice; once to separate the MEC Officers from the LEC officers, and once to add 2 reps to the PHX council. I’m not sure how long the RC4 was a problem, but actions could have been taken to remedy that.
2) Here’s how USAPA wants to solve those problems:
a. FPL abuse. We don’t know how much the dues are, but we know that they plan on assessing at will. Also, I don’t see a FPL policy, just some goodwill statements. They’ll need a lot of FPL to cover all of their planned activities such as defending lawsuits, etc.
b. Screwing junior guys. Well considering that this is mostly supported by junior guys, I’m sure that they won’t be stupid enough to screw themselves (but then again, you never know). Instead, they’ll just make all of the AWA pilots junior and then screw us some more. So basically, it’ll be OK to screw junior people so long as they are not the junior people being screwed.
c. Roll-call voting. Well this turned out to be the first of several false promises. I thought we were going to see seniority block representation? Hmm. I have a theory on this flip flop but I’ll just save it for the judge.
3) USAPA really doesn’t have a prayer:
a. USAPA has all of it’s eggs in one basket with Seeham; it’s entire existence relies upon the word of ONE attorney. Let’s take a brief look at this guy:
i. First, I heard that the AWAPA (the union trying to replace ALPA at AWA a few years ago) used Seeham. The deal they cut with Seeham was that he would work for free, and then recoup his billable hours if and when AWAPA succeeded. Apparently, USAPA didn’t get nearly as good of a deal. Seeham is getting half rate now, and will recoup the rest if USAPA wins. So either Bradford sucks at negotiating, or Seeham doesn’t have much faith in USAPA’s success (or both).
ii. Interesting that Seeham mentions the small fraternity of RLA attorneys, and I wonder why he keeps taking these pro-bono jobs. My guess is that he’s the “ambulance chaser†of pilot representation, seeing as how he’s been unable to secure any meaningful work in his career. He probably views angry pilots as a cash register. He has a lot to gain financially by winning this vote (the recouped fees PLUS they years of job security in litigation), so I’m sure he’ll continue to tell any lie he can to help USAPA win.
b. USAPA plans on “negotiating seniority†and is convinced that a ratified agreement will hold up in court. Let’s look at the viability of that plan:
i. USAPA would actually need to be successful in negotiating an agreement with the company in order to accomplish screwing the AWA pilots with their seniority abrogation plan. Even reaching a TA would be a long shot with all of the road blocks 1800 pilots, a few court orders, and a “parking lot committee†(among a laundry list of other things) would put up. The big question will be – assuming USAPA can even get to a TA that has DOH in it (meaning, Parker actually agrees with them on that) what contract will USAPA present for ratification? If this joint contract is about seniority (which it obviously if for USAPA), will USAPA present LOA93 just to get a DOH list implemented? I haven’t seen what USAPA’s goals for a contract are. Sounds like East seniority really is for sale.
ii. Mike Abram, a Harvard Law grad from one of the most reputable labor law firms in the country, writes a letter detailing how USAPA will fail to succeed at successfully defending themselves against the onslaught of litigation by the West pilots. That assuming, of course, if USAPA even exists long enough to endure such an intense legal battle. Don’t kid yourself, ALPA needs to ensure success in this, even if USAPA wins, so I’m sure they’ll be funding all of this.
BTW – I like the fact that Bradford is soliciting West votes. Either he’s not so confident about the size of his “majority†or he’s trying to find a legal angle to indemnify himself.
Oh – say – one other thing – what kind of “union†founds itself upon the principle of going to war with almost half of its members? Most unions I know form because of egregious working conditions, etc.
Here’s my take on what’s going on:
1) The opposition towards ALPA from the East pilots seems to be almost exclusively specific to the way the AAA MEC operates. A few highlights:
a. FPL abuse. Doesn’t happen much here at AWA. But that’s because we don’t have two dozen people on full-time FPL like AAA does, we have a “FPL Policy†that prevents volunteers from double-dipping like the AAA volunteers do, and our MEC doesn’t hold 20 special meetings a year in a fancy hotel (they hold the meetings in the PHX office). According to my reps, the AAA MEC is almost $1 mil in debt, while AWA is not in debt. Sounds like an AAA problem, not an ALPA problem.
b. Screwing junior guys. AAA MEC has a long history of doing that. I read the garbage that Portale posts, and I see the gist of it is that his MEC promised him and the other MDA guys something they never planned to deliver (sound familiar? DOH?). Meanwhile, the AAA MEC runs a “DATE OF HIRE†campaign during the merger, and the AWA MEC runs a “SAVE DAVE†(our most junior pilot) campaign. Also, AWA had a long standing credit cap after our first furlough, and we assessed the membership after 9/11 to pay furloughee COBRA benefits. The “screwing the junior guy legacy†is definitely specific AAA, not ALPA.
c. Roll-call voting. That problem will be extinct once the AAA / AWA MEC’s merge, but even if it weren’t, we could make changes to the ALPA C&BL to change to a seniority block or other system. AWA changed the C&BL at least twice; once to separate the MEC Officers from the LEC officers, and once to add 2 reps to the PHX council. I’m not sure how long the RC4 was a problem, but actions could have been taken to remedy that.
2) Here’s how USAPA wants to solve those problems:
a. FPL abuse. We don’t know how much the dues are, but we know that they plan on assessing at will. Also, I don’t see a FPL policy, just some goodwill statements. They’ll need a lot of FPL to cover all of their planned activities such as defending lawsuits, etc.
b. Screwing junior guys. Well considering that this is mostly supported by junior guys, I’m sure that they won’t be stupid enough to screw themselves (but then again, you never know). Instead, they’ll just make all of the AWA pilots junior and then screw us some more. So basically, it’ll be OK to screw junior people so long as they are not the junior people being screwed.
c. Roll-call voting. Well this turned out to be the first of several false promises. I thought we were going to see seniority block representation? Hmm. I have a theory on this flip flop but I’ll just save it for the judge.
3) USAPA really doesn’t have a prayer:
a. USAPA has all of it’s eggs in one basket with Seeham; it’s entire existence relies upon the word of ONE attorney. Let’s take a brief look at this guy:
i. First, I heard that the AWAPA (the union trying to replace ALPA at AWA a few years ago) used Seeham. The deal they cut with Seeham was that he would work for free, and then recoup his billable hours if and when AWAPA succeeded. Apparently, USAPA didn’t get nearly as good of a deal. Seeham is getting half rate now, and will recoup the rest if USAPA wins. So either Bradford sucks at negotiating, or Seeham doesn’t have much faith in USAPA’s success (or both).
ii. Interesting that Seeham mentions the small fraternity of RLA attorneys, and I wonder why he keeps taking these pro-bono jobs. My guess is that he’s the “ambulance chaser†of pilot representation, seeing as how he’s been unable to secure any meaningful work in his career. He probably views angry pilots as a cash register. He has a lot to gain financially by winning this vote (the recouped fees PLUS they years of job security in litigation), so I’m sure he’ll continue to tell any lie he can to help USAPA win.
b. USAPA plans on “negotiating seniority†and is convinced that a ratified agreement will hold up in court. Let’s look at the viability of that plan:
i. USAPA would actually need to be successful in negotiating an agreement with the company in order to accomplish screwing the AWA pilots with their seniority abrogation plan. Even reaching a TA would be a long shot with all of the road blocks 1800 pilots, a few court orders, and a “parking lot committee†(among a laundry list of other things) would put up. The big question will be – assuming USAPA can even get to a TA that has DOH in it (meaning, Parker actually agrees with them on that) what contract will USAPA present for ratification? If this joint contract is about seniority (which it obviously if for USAPA), will USAPA present LOA93 just to get a DOH list implemented? I haven’t seen what USAPA’s goals for a contract are. Sounds like East seniority really is for sale.
ii. Mike Abram, a Harvard Law grad from one of the most reputable labor law firms in the country, writes a letter detailing how USAPA will fail to succeed at successfully defending themselves against the onslaught of litigation by the West pilots. That assuming, of course, if USAPA even exists long enough to endure such an intense legal battle. Don’t kid yourself, ALPA needs to ensure success in this, even if USAPA wins, so I’m sure they’ll be funding all of this.
BTW – I like the fact that Bradford is soliciting West votes. Either he’s not so confident about the size of his “majority†or he’s trying to find a legal angle to indemnify himself.
Oh – say – one other thing – what kind of “union†founds itself upon the principle of going to war with almost half of its members? Most unions I know form because of egregious working conditions, etc.
E
EastUS
Guest
"1) The opposition towards ALPA from the East pilots seems to be almost exclusively specific to the way the AAA MEC operates." Umm...you're actually joking..right?
"a. FPL abuse. Doesn’t happen much here at AWA." I'm sure. I've no doubts that the recent establishment of Alpo in your turf's best representative of the "One True Alpo"
"3) USAPA really doesn’t have a prayer" Understood...sigh..let's all just go home now.
"Instead, they’ll just make all of the AWA pilots junior and then screw us some more. So basically, it’ll be OK to screw junior people so long as they are not the junior people being screwed." Nope. Everyone knows that any person of true and proper moral values would naturally think it best to "screw" people legitimately senior, (via actual flying years), for their selfish personal benefit..wouldn't they? 😉
"a. USAPA has all of it’s eggs in one basket with Seeham; it’s entire existence relies upon the word of ONE attorney. Let’s take a brief look at this guy:
i. First, I heard that the AWAPA (the union trying to replace ALPA at AWA a few years ago) used Seeham. The deal they cut with Seeham was that he would work for free, and then recoup his billable hours if and when AWAPA succeeded. "
I see it clearly then = This guy was fine, and considered as fully competent counsel when deemed usefull for the west/AWAPA, and one assumes had the full blessings of your now MEC Alpo chairman, (with said chairman's rather flexible notions on at least union allegiances, and now, perhaps lawyers as well?), but has since become a hopeless village idiot when no longer serving west purposes...got it.
Sigh.. I think that's more than enough points of brilliant "logic" right there for me to consume at the present :blink:
Phoenix
Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2003
- Messages
- 8,584
- Reaction score
- 7,430
exB717Flyer
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2002
- Messages
- 1,106
- Reaction score
- 599
Easy question to answer. Keeping ALPA = a new CBA and protection from future merger screwjobs (you know USAir won't be the acquirer). Your side blames the AWA pilots for not "fixing" your problem with Nicolau's decision. If (heaven forbid) USAPA wins that will become the West's problem that the East will need to fix. In effect, that's trading one chokehold for another. Right now your side is preventing contract talks but if USAPA wins it will be the West. The winner of this dispute, as always, will be Doug Parker. One must keep in mind this whole mess was started by the East thus the solution lays with them.
- Status
