ALPA Thread 1/10 to 1/17 ALL ALPA/USAPA Discussed Here

[EastUS]

Easy question to answer. Keeping ALPA = a new CBA and protection from future merger screwjobs (you know USAir won't be the acquirer). Your side blames the AWA pilots for not "fixing" your problem with Nicolau's decision. If (heaven forbid) USAPA wins that will become the West's problem that the East will need to fix. In effect, that's trading one chokehold for another. Right now your side is preventing contract talks but if USAPA wins it will be the West. The winner of this dispute, as always, will be Doug Parker. One must keep in mind this whole mess was started by the East thus the solution lays with them.

"A new CBA"? Based on..umm...what exactly? That the east will sign off on such as things stand?..That Alpo's even capable fo producing some "great new contract"?...Guess again. "protection from future merger screwjobs"??? Be serious please :blink: Alpo's doen such a fine job with this one....words fail to adequately serve here.

I don't "blame" any AWA for not "fixing" anything, and where you get that idea's a mystery to me. That, with the advent of Nic/etc..the west feels full entitlement towards skipping merrily over people with far more actual seniority is on your heads, not mine, and frankly, speaks to me more of character deficiencies, or at best, rank opportunism more than anything else, but such doesn't make you accountable for the capriciousness of Alpoid "processes".

"Right now your side is preventing contract talks but if USAPA wins it will be the West" We'll see over time. Quite honestly..all I've seen/heard in total from west folk's been essentially variations on how everyone's "for sale"..which speaks volumes about the prevailing philosophy out there methinks. Most west folks seemed to find it utterly incomprehensible that "easties" wouldn't sell ourselves out for a few pieces of silver via pay parity. Eventual resolution by way of an improved contract hardly seems any impossibilty with your group..I could be wrong.

"One must keep in mind this whole mess was started by the East thus the solution lays with them." Apparently,....at least according to your viewpoint. I feel that an utterly incompetent "association" employing absurdly vague and innefective "processes" placed our groups into this mess..and they've/Alpo's got to go if this is ever to be cleaned up...period. If indeed "this whole mess was started by the east" and "thus, the solution lays with them"...It'd seem proper timing for the west to cease ranting, whining/threatening/et al....and observe the fixing of the mess. A rather "ancient" adage comes to mind here for future reference though: "If you're not part of the solution.....you're part of the problem".

 

[AWA320]

I find it very telling that the USAPA supporters have no comment on the latest legal opinion on overturning the Nic. Is their perfect plan to staple the west falling apart?

Falling apart? It was never a plan to begin with! This non sense of "I didnt get what I want so I will hold my breath until I do mentality" was weak right out of the gate. Yeah they got over for for 7months by not negotiating and moving people to the left seat but that too came crashing down when Bush signed age 65 into law! In the end they have lost far more then they really would have gained by honoring their obligations but what can you expect for people who constantly repeat the same mistakes time after time? Answer, they blame others to make themselves feel better...

 

[EastUS]

Falling apart? It was never a plan to begin with! This non sense of "I didnt get what I want so I will hold my breath until I do mentality" was weak right out of the gate. Yeah they got over for for 7months by not negotiating and moving people to the left seat but that too came crashing down when Bush signed age 65 into law! In the end they have lost far more then they really would have gained by honoring their obligations but what can you expect for people who constantly repeat the same mistakes time after time? Answer, they blame others to make themselves feel better...

It must be true then....as were your prescient earlier observations that're now such good fun to observe: "You won't even get 200 cards!!"...or my personal favorite: "A little bird told me that you are several hundred cards short"..then there's the various famous bit's about "Go ahead and file then..I dare you!!" Without fretting over a host of other erudite and dead on the mark predictions of yours....I'll merely note that you're material's suitable for much chuckling 😉 If you've no copyright objection issues..I think I'll add "Falling apart? It was never a plan to begin with!" to that august collection of material, of which but an insignificant amount's noted in the above.

A never ending source of amusement.....

 

[Phoenix]

A never ending source of amusement.....

Like a mosquito that breaths a boastful warning, "Watch out. I can pump like ten bloodmobiles."

 

[luvn737s]

Votes count. Cards don't.

 

[P51Pilot]

Votes count. Cards don't.

East Pilot April Bid. 39 Group 2 and above Captain Vacancies. 42 Emb 190 Captain Vacancies, 81 total Captain Vacancies. St Nic is good for the East pilots, how?

 

[sharktooth]

A noble goal to be sure. But what will it cost, individually and as a group? And can you be 100%, unequivocally certain that if USAPA is the new CBA, Nicolau is mitigated?

Mitigate is not the appropriate word. Perhaps you meant militate against? Mitigate implies there might be something left of the "award".

USAPA will allow nothing of Nicholau to mitigate, the "award" will gather dust in a forgotten pigeonhole. There will be nothing to negotiate with.

As unhappy as many people are with the Fair Treatment For Experienced Pilots Act, didn't ALPA lobby to keep it from being retroactive?

Are you implying ALPA is the Goliath and USAPA is David? Great analogy! The outcome will be appropriate.

The USAPA intitiative has considerable momentum, but just as they accuse ALPA National of doing, one group will take it in the shorts for the larger majority. And that would be the West pilots.

Are you implying the west pilots got a lottery ticket with the "award" because that the only way they could "take it in the shorts" is if they had something to begin with. Being they had nothing, the only way they could "take it in the shorts" is if they got a windfall.

The East pilot group has a track record of poor decision making and I hope a favorable vote for USAPA won't be one more to add to the list.

This will be the first time in a long time the east pilots have actually done something not recommended by ALPA, i.e., act stupid.

 

[Ardenian]

The short version is that the MEC was controlled via the “roll callâ€￾ vote by the PIT and PHL representatives (known as the Roll Call Four or the RC4) The RC4 wanted control over the negotiating process so they dismantled an experienced and qualified negotiating team and replaced them with inexperienced and unqualified negotiators. (the political purpose was to have the new inexperienced negotiators report directly to the RC4 rather than the entire MEC) ALPA “nationalâ€￾ tried to prevent our MEC from making such an error, but were unsuccessful. Each time a contract was presented to the MEC, the RC4 rejected it hoping for a better deal from the court. [/i]

You're right, sharktooth. We have been stupid for some time.

The above passage seems like ancient history now.

With the Nic, USAPA, and all the other garbage we are dealing with, it seems some memories are fading.

The short story?

The PIT and PHL reps from LOA 93 days were at the leading edge. They were the first to wave the bulls##t flag when ALPA national advisors spoke.

The PIT and PHL reps tried in vain to awaken the US Airways pilots to the fact that these expensive, "expert" advisors were lying to you yet again; just as they did during the pension termination.

How many US Airways pilots can honestly say that with all that has happened since that day so long ago, they still believe that the only way we could save our jobs in 2004 was to agree to a plan which would reduce the Cost Per Available Seat-mile to six cents? Good plan, eh?

The expensive ALPA "expert" advisors said this was the only way. This ridiculous scheme was even validated by the US Airways MEC through the opinion of a US Airways pilot who was a CPA. (Now there's an expert for you!)

The one outside ALPA "expert" who pushed this plan was an ex-investment banker (no one really knows why he is an ex-investment banker, there is a great deal of mystery surrounding this and the lawsuit filed when he left the business.) He would get paid a success fee by US Airways after any negotiations. That's right! US Airways paid him after he would advise ALPA to fold! in 2002 alone, he took in over $1M for his advice. His fee for LOA 93 is north of $5M.

Donn Butkovic and Chris Beebe personally wrote (and signed for the MEC) this lucrative contract for him. I wonder if they get a cut? I guess we will find out in court.

Damn, we were stupid...

I only hope that members of the 57% can now see how we were shammed by ALPA.

ALPA went full-scale on attempting to blame the PIT and PHL reps who spoke up about LOA 93 being a sham - thus following the ALPA mantra of "We know better than you!" and "It's a shifting paridigm," and my personal favorite, "It was less of a negotiation than a salvage operation." The last one was used extensively during negotiations in 1997, 2002, and 2003.

I was based in PHL back in those days. I spoke personally with all the players, including the outside expert, not just in the crew room, but at many of the MEC meetings. ALPA national was growing tired of wasting money on protracted negotiations, it cost them too damn much. They would do anything to avoid a possible job action and the expense of supporting it. The "ALPA lifers" on the US Airways MEC soon agreed to get "a deal, any deal."

And yet again, ALPA looks out for ALPA, and the pilots of US Airways pay the price.

I only hope that this atrocity is not implemented on the west. Although they have made their own mistakes, this is one in which they were not involved.

Time to throw ALPA and their hooligans off the property.

I'm for USAPA.

 

[Hawkhunter]

Falling apart? It was never a plan to begin with! This non sense of "I didnt get what I want so I will hold my breath until I do mentality" was weak right out of the gate. Yeah they got over for for 7months by not negotiating and moving people to the left seat but that too came crashing down when Bush signed age 65 into law! In the end they have lost far more then they really would have gained by honoring their obligations but what can you expect for people who constantly repeat the same mistakes time after time? Answer, they blame others to make themselves feel better...

You might want to check out our new bid that is out big mouth. More Captain seats that you westoffs dont get. 125 new hires.

 

[JetMonkey]

East Pilot April Bid. 39 Group 2 and above Captain Vacancies. 42 Emb 190 Captain Vacancies, 81 total Captain Vacancies. St Nic is good for the East pilots, how?

Because it's given you a windfall while the west stays stagnated. Enjoy your resurrection from the dead.

 

[Ardenian]

This will be the first time in a long time the east pilots have actually done something not recommended by ALPA, i.e., act stupid.

Don't do something stupid. If ALPA is against it, it's probably right.

VOTE USAPA

 

[P51Pilot]

Because it's given you a windfall while the west stays stagnated. Enjoy your resurrection from the dead.

Enjoy PHX and LAS, that is what you brought to the merger. Anything else is a windfall unless you want to get in line ala DOH.

 

[JetMonkey]

Enjoy PHX and LAS, that is what you brought to the merger. Anything else is a windfall unless you want to get in line ala DOH.

You didn't bring Heathrow, Bogotá, China and a half dozen European cities neither. Who's gonna be upgrading into those routes? Like I said, enjoy your resurrection. :down:

 

[P51Pilot]

You didn't bring Heathrow, Bogotá, China and a half dozen European cities neither. Who's gonna be upgrading into those routes? Like I said, enjoy your resurrection. :down:

The persons who have been around the longest who select them will be upgrading into those routes. I think that is a simple enough concept to grasp.

 

[Phoenix]

... in 2002 alone, he took in over $1M for his advice. His fee for LOA 93 is north of $5M.

Donn Butkovic and Chris Beebe personally wrote (and signed for the MEC) this lucrative contract for him. ...

I remembered the "success" fee, but I am most humbly grateful to you for the history lesson on who signed it. (Bear won't appreciate who "signed" it because Bear thinks signatures don't mean anything.)

My only sadness is that Beebe and Butkovic aren't listed as members of the ACPC, I mean with all their success and all... But on a happy note I guess they are tools in the ALPA tool box, so if we keep ALPA we can "keep the tools."