ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[767jetz]

Most of us are too young to remember that this is precisely what occurred at American Airlines over 40 years ago. The pilots' Representatives were put into trusteeship by ALPA, the pilots stood tall, and prevailed.

Maybe. But today only council 41 is in imminent danger of being put into trusteeship. Many on this site seem to operate on the assumption that council 41 speaks for all East pilots. They do not. So this action by ALPA National might actually unite the other East councils and facilitate the will of the actual majority of East pilots. An outcome the USAPA supporters do not like to think or speak publicly about, because it is contrary to the message they are desperately trying to control and put out.

One thing is for sure... time will tell the truth, and that time is rapidly approaching. And when it arrives, all the speculation from both sides will finally be replaced with reality. (Which ever way it goes.)

 

[end_of_alpa]

So, ALPA speaks for you when they say:

"We Are All US Airways Pilots

No matter what airliner type we fly, no matter what name is painted on the hull, and no matter where it may take us today – we are all US Airways pilots. The representation fight US Airways pilots face matters to me. I care about my profession and my union – and I know that they and I are better off with a strong, united ALPA. A chain of independent, company-based unions will break with the first stress.

What am I going to ask my fellow pilots at US Airways..."

Does this mean I'll get MY seniority when any of us merge or just what YOU think we should get, as "united" pilots? Why isn't NWA and Delta merging, two ALPA carriers? Because the NWA guys don't understand why THEIR years of service are worth LESS than DAL pilots years of service.

Break with the first stress...that is what is happening at ALPA national right now! How about this....

“Everybody can make their decisions in terms of how they elect to operate in terms of their air carrier certificates and their labor agreements. We think the right business model is to keep those certificates separate so that you do not end up with the leverage. So we plan not just today, but in the future, to have three separate operating certificates: CCIA, ATI, and ABX.â€￾
ABX Holdings President and CEO Joe Hete

What good is ALPA when your years of service are stripped from you? Thanks fellow "US Airways" pilots. Whipsaw is the new ALPA mantra.

 

[EastUS]

One thing is for sure... time will tell the truth, and that time is rapidly approaching. And when it arrives, all the speculation from both sides will finally be replaced with reality.

Indeed. At that time you'll have to find another hobby

 

[end_of_alpa]

Maybe. But today only council 41 is in imminent danger of being put into trusteeship. Many on this site seem to operate on the assumption that council 41 speaks for all East pilots. They do not. So this action by ALPA National might actually unite the other East councils and facilitate the will of the actual majority of East pilots. An outcome the USAPA supporters do not like to think or speak publicly about, because it is contrary to the message they are desperately trying to control and put out.

One thing is for sure... time will tell the truth, and that time is rapidly approaching. And when it arrives, all the speculation from both sides will finally be replaced with reality. (Which ever way it goes.)

There's the "rub"! Council 41 does NOT speak for all EAST US Airways pilots.....they, as EAST US Airways pilots, disassociated from their respective positions as LEC reps, simply echo the FACT that they are in agreement with the over +3,200 cards submitted by EAST US Airways pilots that their seniority is NOT for sale! Don't let YOUR reps and the CLT reps or the BOS F/O rep put "silly" thoughts in your "wistful" thinking. The AWA MEC is "spooling up" for the fight: "Relative seniority vs. DOH"

Who will win?

"For some time, the MEC has been working behind the scenes to ensure that the America West pilots will have an organized, focused and strategic structure to spearhead the war on USAPA should ALPA lose the National Mediation Board (NMB) election. This war will be fought on many fronts, and will include a comprehensive legal strategy. Existence of this organization has not been made public until now for strategic reasons; however, in the upcoming weeks you will begin receiving communications from this new organization, called the America West Airlines Pilots Protective Association (AWAPPA). A website and communications system will be up and running in the near future.

For now, please adjust your spam filters to accept emails from the domain “awappa.org.â€￾

http://www.armyofleonidas.org/
http://www.stlouislaw.com/

"Though the firm’s focus is primarily litigation, its members also have substantial experience in representing corporations in transactions of many types..."

"Green Jacobson & Butsch, P.C. is the successor to a law firm originally founded in 1958 as Green & Lander. It is a boutique law firm, specializing in the representation of the legal interests of private and publically owned corporations and other business entities. Though the firm’s focus is primarily litigation, its members also have substantial experience in representing corporations in transactions of many types. The firm’s areas of expertise include securities law, corporate law, products liability, insurance defense, construction law, condemnation, real estate, housing law, personal injury law, and the defense of class actions.

One of the AWA pilots on the ALPA forum speculate or alude to the possibility that FFDO's on their side might resort to extreme measures:

"If a new union, the US Airline Pilots Association, wins an election starting next month to represent pilots at the merged airline, it said it would try to scrap the arbitrator’s award and install a seniority list based on date of hire. That would heavily favor the older pilots from the old US Airways side.

If that happens, said John McIlvenna, who heads the union local for the 1,500 former America West pilots, “we will be in all-out warfare.â€￾

------------

I read this NY TIMES article and couldn't help but think of the FFDO program. I worked with XXXXX XXXXXXXX' to get the first class off the ground. XXXXX worked tirelessly against all obstacles. Now I wonder how much longer it will be before all this turmoil spills over into the FFDO program.

If usapa passes and the program is placed into jeopardy, we can thank USAPA for yet another U-Turn in industry advances."

Maybe the AWAPPA will resort to extreme measures as one of their pilots "allude". It is STUPID statements like THIS that WILL put the FFDO program in jeopardy. I certainly hope not.

However, I hope your "army" can do better than this.

And talk about "anti-labor"! The "army" of lawyers that LEONIDAS chooses IS a law firm that is experienced in representing CORPORATIONS ONLY! Not one LABOR organization is listed on their website that they represent. They don't know anything about RLA, either. Not one "lawyer" specializes in labor law. The next case is going to be "America West Airlines Pilots Protective Association (AWAPPA) v. US Airways and USAPA". It will look a lot like Air Wisc. v. Sanderson. "MITIGATE"??? Martin Green is out of his league. That old man needs to retire!!

I, personally, can not WAIT for this lawsuit. I want to see the legal precedence that finally puts the stake through the heart of ALPA! If every pilot is a US Airways pilot under ALPA I'm the second coming of JC. NOT!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Maybe. But today only council 41 is in imminent danger of being put into trusteeship. Many on this site seem to operate on the assumption that council 41 speaks for all East pilots. They do not.

You're right. The Council does not speak for all east pilots.

So this action by ALPA National might actually unite the other East councils and facilitate the will of the actual majority of East pilots. An outcome the USAPA supporters do not like to think or speak publicly about, because it is contrary to the message they are desperately trying to control and put out.

By majority, is that 50%+1? 0r 1/2 of 3510= 1755+1? Wow!! Thats a stretch from 3200 plus cards, on the second drive no less. I think your majority statement is just a little bit off. Making your FUD a bunch of ALPA crap we are constantly being subjected to. You want to help your case? Start with something a little more credible than that. Sorry, there is no hidden control of the message. As usual, ALPA thinks we are incapable of rational thought.

One thing is for sure... time will tell the truth, and that time is rapidly approaching. And when it arrives, all the speculation from both sides will finally be replaced with reality. (Which ever way it goes.)

It couldn't happen soon enough.

 

[EastUS]

"I read this NY TIMES article and couldn't help but think of the FFDO program."
"If usapa passes and the program is placed into jeopardy, we can thank USAPA for yet another U-Turn in industry advances"

Let me see if I have this right. The FFDO program could be placed in jeopardy merely by voting in an actual union? :blink: Wow!..Now; there's the expressed fantasies of a truly well disciplined, extremely mature, and highly professional "army" at work. What a disgrace it is to be even remotely affiliated with such childish morons as those who would even suggest such an absurdity.


""For some time, the MEC has been working behind the scenes to ensure that the America West pilots will have an organized, focused and strategic structure to spearhead the war on USAPA should ALPA lose the National Mediation Board (NMB) election. This war will be fought on many fronts, .." I'll take a wild guess that the "High Road" and "Righteous Position" are no longer players as supposed "principles" 😉 Ah..the human heart's condition when poisoned by greed is indeed a sad thing.

"Existence of this organization has not been made public until now for strategic reasons;" I can well imagine the "strategic reasons" = They'd have to admit that they've been completely full of BS, and wholly misleading their membership untill very, very recently, about how things were actually going...and; didn't want to put out the slightest hint as to how desperate they are..in hopes of keeping any imaginary fence-sitters confused, and hopefully, then more susceptible to the Alpoid BS-and-propoganda barrage.

Hmmm....wouldn't the usage of MEC members dues-paid time being spent on non-Alpoid issues, ie: preparing for the very defeat of Alpo, indicate some obvious "Disloyalty" to the Mighty Mother Ship !? Is there ANY way in which such clearly Alpo-defeatest endeavors can be construed as any "Voice their support for Alpa" notion? 😉

Aren't all devout Alpoids supposed to be signing Loyalty Oaths and admonishing their flocks that they MUST, each and every one of them, MUST vote for Alpo? Isn't it additionally true that ALL their efforts should be focused on nothing but retaining the Glory of Herndon?...Somebody better call the Pontiff Prater and set up another Inquisition out west ASAP!! 😉 Heretics are everywhere!!

 

[Phoenix]

john prater chooses to unseat the US Air pilot's most faithful representatives in PHL, after choosing to deny pilots the right to recall the most unfaithful in CLT.

Frank Lorenzo had an excuse.. he was management.

VIA ELECTRONIC MAIL

Captain Eric A. Rowe
Chairman and
Captain Representative
Local Council 41
Air Line Pilots Association
Evans Mountain Road
PO Box 298
Strafford, NH 03884
bluberry@worldpath.net


Captain David E. Ciabattoni
Vice Chairman and
First Officer Representative
Local Council 41
Air Line Pilots Association
403 Scott Lane
Wallingford, PA 19086
ciaalpa@comcast.net


Captain James P. Portale
Secretary-Treasurer
Local Council 41
Air Line Pilots Association
11 Bluebeard Dr
Waretown, NJ 08758
compute@cybercomm.net


NOTICE OF CHARGES AND
OF EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING TO CONSIDER CHARGES
PURSUANT TO ARTICLE XIX, SECTION 1.D
In accordance with Article XIX, Section 1.D of the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws, I hereby
notify you of the charges set forth below. I also notify you that I have proposed an emergency
trusteeship of Local Council 41 to take effect immediately upon approval by the ALPA
Executive Council. The ALPA Executive Council will meet to decide whether to approve the
proposed emergency corrective action on March 3, 2008, at 1100 Eastern Standard Time. The
meeting will be held in the Association’s offices in Washington, D.C.


1

The charges and the basis for the proposed emergency trusteeship are as follows:

Captains Rowe and Ciabattoni are each officers and status representatives of ALPA Local
Council 41, as well as members of the ALPA US Airways MEC and members of the ALPA
Board of Directors. Captain Portale is also an officer of ALPA Local Council 41. In those
positions, each owes a duty of loyalty to ALPA, including the duty to declare his full support for
ALPA in the context of an NMB representation election resulting from an organizing drive by a
rival labor organization, and the duty to lend no support to that other organization.

USAPA has challenged the Association’s representation rights at US Airways. The voting
period for an NMB representation election begins on March 20. The impending NMB
representation election makes it critical that each Local Council 41 officer now declare his
support for the continuation of ALPA’s status as pilot bargaining representative, oppose the
USAPA effort, provide no support to the USAPA effort, and urge the members of Local Council
41 to vote for ALPA in the NMB representation election.

In addition to the failure of all of the Local Council 41 officers to declare support for ALPA, and
their joint communications reflecting a pattern of support for USAPA, on February 27, 2008,
Captains Rowe and Ciabattoni each further showed his support for USAPA by attempting to
recruit a HIMS liaison for the Association to perform the same services for USAPA. This
discussion with the HIMS liaison concerning work for USAPA took place while they were
speaking to him in their capacity as LEC officers and ALPA representatives.

Captains Rowe and Ciabattoni have stated that they do not “work for USAPA,” but they have not
denied that they are providing support and assistance to USAPA, nor have they repudiated their
prior communications reflecting a pattern of support. Likewise, none of the three Local Council
41 officers has declared that he supports ALPA in the representation election and would urge
Local Council 41 members to vote for ALPA in the representation election.

It is my determination that, by their actions on behalf of a rival labor organization and their
continuing failure to provide necessary support for ALPA in the face of an impending NMB
representation election between the Association and the rival organization, the Local Council 41
officers have violated and failed to comply with their obligations to ALPA as representatives,
officers, and directors under the Constitution and By-Laws and Association policies, and
exposed the Association to detrimental consequences by engaging in a substantial failure to
perform significant legal or representational duties of a bargaining representative. In short, they
have betrayed their obligations to ALPA and, in doing so, have jeopardized ALPA’s continued
existence at US Airways.

Based on these facts and circumstances, I have determined that emergency corrective action is
necessary and appropriate in the face of the impending NMB representation election.

At this time, it is imperative that each Local Council 41 officer clearly and unequivocally, in
writing, declare his support for ALPA and opposition to USAPA in the NMB representation
election and urge all Local Council 41 pilots to cast their votes for ALPA. If they cannot do so,
they should resign their ALPA positions.

2


Therefore, each Local Council 41 officer is requested to state, in writing, his support for ALPA
in the representation election, his opposition to USAPA, and his commitment to urge Local
Council 41 pilots to vote for ALPA, and to send a copy of that statement to Captain Bill Couette,
ALPA Vice President−Administration/Secretary (bill.couette@alpa.org) no later than 1700 EST
on Sunday, March 2, 2008. The Executive Council will review such response in connection with
its meeting on this issue.

As required by Article XIX, Section 1.D of the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws, if the
Executive Council approves the proposed emergency corrective action, the officers of Local
Council 41 will be afforded a full and fair hearing before the ALPA Executive Board. Such
hearing will be scheduled for a date to be determined, within the time limits set forth in Article
XIX, Section 1.D, and they will receive advance notice of the hearing’s date, time, and location.

While the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws do not require the Executive Council to provide a
hearing or other opportunity for appearance before acting on the proposed emergency corrective
action, the Local Council 41 officers may, if they choose, attend the Executive Council meeting
and make a presentation commencing at 1400 hours on March 3, 2008, not to exceed a total of
thirty (30) minutes. If the Local Council 41 officers intend to make a presentation to the
Executive Council, they should notify Captain Bill Couette, Vice President−Administration/
Secretary, by e-mail no later than 1700 EST on Sunday, March 2, of their intention to do so.


Yours truly,

Captain John Prater
President

cc: AAA MEC and AAA LEC Officers
National Officers
Executive Council
Executive Board
Executive Administrator

 

[AAA73Pilot]

""For some time, the MEC has been working behind the scenes to ensure that the America West pilots will have an organized, focused and strategic structure to spearhead the war on USAPA should ALPA lose the National Mediation Board (NMB) election. This war will be fought on many fronts, .." I'll take a wild guess that the "High Road" and "Righteous Position" are no longer players as supposed "principles" 😉 Ah..the human heart's condition when poisoned by greed is indeed a sad thing.

High Road and Righteous Position? How the holier than thou have fallen. Gotta Love it!

 

[EastUS]

john prater chooses to unseat the US Air pilot's most faithful representatives in PHL, after choosing to deny pilots the right to recall the most unfaithful in CLT.

Frank Lorenzo had an excuse.. he was management.

I got a kick from: "While the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws do not require the Executive Council to provide a hearing or other opportunity for appearance before acting on the proposed emergency corrective action,..." After pompously noting the "All Powerfull" nature of Herndon, and the utter lack of much of ANY protective principles written within the
"ALPA Constitution and By-Laws"...he notes that he's willing to give them an opportunity to speak at the inquisition.... for all of 30 minutes, doubtless to be immediately followed by burning at the stake Whatta' great and noble guy, huh?

"..after choosing to deny pilots the right to recall the most unfaithful in CLT" (Shakes head in best Reagan imitation) There you go again...arrogantly implying that line pilots should have any rights to the slightest degree of self determination...sigh. You would seem to be even suggesting that Alpo's purely disregarding it's own supposed "rules" in order to manipulate events soley for Herndon's benefit,and with utter contempt for the actual desires of the majority of line pilots. Your comments smack of arrogant implications that Alpo Notional doesn't know best....hope your Loyalty Oath's current..or The Stake may well await you and yours Heretic! 😉

Now again; about these west-MEC Alpoids spending so much of their time preparing for Alpo's demise, publicly announcing their efforts, and all this rather than exclusively sitting around in proper Alpoid "Harrumphing" circles and forwarding FUD.....Sigh..I've full "fraternal" fears for Alpo now...by golly...I'm almost becoming a "concerned pilot". Hmm..does that mean I can get flight pay loss?

 

[sharktooth]

john prater chooses to unseat the US Air pilot's most faithful representatives in PHL, after choosing to deny pilots the right to recall the most unfaithful in CLT.

Frank Lorenzo had an excuse.. he was management.

ALPA is no longer about representing pilots, maybe hasn't been in quite a while, i.e., reps who sign loyalty oaths need never be subject to accountability by their pilots, reps who do not sign loyalty oaths are summarily and tyrannically forced to resign, despite representing their pilots to the nth degree.

Congratulations, Prater. You are now a tin-pot, third world dictator.

 

[Phoenix]

.. Hmm..does that mean I can get flight pay loss?

LOL!



This was the best summary I have seen...

You won't see "failure to represent the pilots who elected them" included in this laundry list. That is because these three gentlemen have done an outstanding job of representing the Philly pilots, and have their overwhelming support. No recall movement in PHL, in case you didn't notice, Prater.

Meanwhile, our great national leader ignores the flouting of our C&BL in the Charlotte recall attempt. This union is a disgrace.

 

[EastUS]

High Road and Righteous Position? How the holier than thou have fallen. Gotta Love it!

It's really just plain sad, if not even wholly pathetic. They state the imminence of "All out war" once Alpo's dead here, and wish to initate such merely to strive to invalidate years of work and experience of others for their own selfish purposes. I guess that we're supposed to be intimidated somehow.....?

It'll take time..but this will all work out.

 

[prechilill]

It'll take time..but this will all work out.

Are you talking about Iraq or USAirways?

 

[EastUS]

Are you talking about Iraq or USAirways?

Now that you mention it..Both. I've "done" the middle east, and am not the defeatist you evidently are But..back to your threatened "war"....😉 We'll work things out...wont' happen immediately, nor without stresses, but it will.

 

[prechilill]

Now that you mention it..Both. I've "done" the middle east, and am not the defeatist you evidently are

USS Scott (DDG-995)- first US military presence on station off the coast of Kuwait, August 1990.