Awa, Us Air Chiefs Propose

[hp_fa]

hp_fa,

Your idea seems fair at first blush, but surley you realize that over time a few zillion ( actually each employee) will have many valid points that also seem reasonable. My $ says an arbitrator will will eventually decide.

I agree though, no one should gain at the expense of another.

FA

[post="272391"][/post]​

Thank you for your reply and understanding of what I am proposing as being the outline of the best overall solution. I truly mean it when I say I do not seek to improve my overall condition at the expense of a U employee.

The alternative that you believe may be inevitable will collectively cost the Union members tens of thousands of dollars for attorneys to prepare, present, argue, summerize and appeal an issue that we should be able to agree upon ourselves as being fair and equitable. The money needing to be spent needs to come from somewhere, even if it is already money the unions have, and wouldn't it be nice to use that money for something more constructive then hired attack dogs (attorneys) who at the end of the day couldn't care less about the final resolution?

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Would it be feasible to proportionally meld the seniority lists, but place the most senior HP pilot equivalent to a US 75 captain and the most junior HP pilot equivalent to the most junior US active pilot?

 

[jack mama]

Doesn't ALPA policy specify DOH? Why are you guys even talking about it. If ALPO thought proportions were fair, they would do it that way....

 

[madders]

Can the pilots and other union represented employees give suugestion on possible
compromise you would make in merging senority.
Since HP is the younger company would you go 3 to 1 ie for every 3 years you have is equal to 1 year of hp senority....

By the way how many pilots or what percentage of pilots will have to retire from U in the next 5 years?

 

[ClueByFour]

Doesn't ALPA policy specify DOH? Why are you guys even talking about it. If ALPO thought proportions were fair, they would do it that way....

[post="272524"][/post]​

ALPA's merger policy is not based on DOH. It strives to avoid winfalls and preserve career expectations.

The latter is why the U pilot group is not going to get a crazy benefit from a merger.

 

[PBRmeASAP]

If you are in the 51st percentile at U when the lists are merged, you should be at the 51st percentile in the merged carrier. If you were in the 51st percentile at HP when the lists are merged, you should be in the 51st percentile in the merged carrier. (Change the "51st percentile" to any number between 1 and 100 and the statements holds true.)

The DOH argument fails for one big reason. There is no reason why HP employees should lose most of their seniority and become junior (in relative terms) to U employees who were working at a compnay that was close to liquidation.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I am not looking to improve my lot in life at the expense of a U employee. However, I should not lose my relative position to a U employee.

[post="272374"][/post]​

One thing in the HP pilots favor is looking at the average age of a USAirways pilot. My understanding is the average age is up around 54 or 55 years old so the retirements will be coming.

 

[Rico]

And that is part of the problem, if you were to have the most junior HP pilot next to the most junior pilot at mainline (excluding those on the E-170, then that AWA new hire from earlier this year jumps ahead of all of the furloughed US pilots, many with 15yrs of senority...

Then in just a half decade, with attrition, retirement, and the fact that most of the U pilots flying an airbus or boeing are so old...

Would leave all of the AWA pilots at the top of the pilot senority list, many with less than a decade of longevity....

That is what would be what is called a windfall.

No one is looking to displace a active HP pilot from his or her seat, but a outright staple of all the furloughed (or JFJ) pilots, and those active pilots flying the E-170 at Mainline does not sit right either.

Now you start to see the fun of merging a list together. It can be done, but simple solutions are rarely possible.

 

[AAviator]

Rico, run what 'ya brung. So what if the last U pilot furloughed has 15 years seniority.. Point being: He's there because there is no job for him at U. Now apply career expectations pre merger...(thats none by all accounts)

Now take the most junior new hire at AWA. He's there because his employer has a job for him. While AWA is on the fence like most hub carriers, his career expectations shine when compared with a U pilot, again pre-merger.
There will be a staple to some extent.

 

[Rico]

Gee, you mean like the career expectations that the TWA guys had...

Lecture someone else about merger fairness sport.

While I expect a large number of the U list to be placed behind even the most junior AWA pilot, what I cannot accpet is the wholesale staple of every furoughed pilot behind even the most junior AWA pilot.

What I am talking about is no windfall be created, either now, or in a few years time when all the "senior pappas" from Airways retire.

And career expectations are a double edged sword. Staples may very well be a fact of mergers, but so are Fences... And to force one usually causes another.

For that AWA new hire had no "career expectation" to ever fly anything larger than a 757, did he/she...? So in the interest of fairness, one should not always assume that a simple "staple" of entire portions of a senority list are necessarily the best thing.

Negotiation focused on fairness is the best thing.

Unless of course you are a selfish AAL pilot who's career has been enhanced off the backs of mergers like Air Cal, Reno and TWA...

 

[justaumechanic]

Welcome to the first steps of the pain you are all going to suffer.

Integration of the seniority lists with all the unions on the property is going to be a huge mess..

If your leadership is smart they will do to U like AA did to TWA.. Staple them to the bottom and start unloading the crap AWA does not want.. Unload the U people at the same rate.. Your the buying company.. They are the dying company. Treat them as such.. U employee's feel entitled, they are not. Pilots especially feel entitled.. Read the posts.. I have been with U for 20 years so why should I have to go to the bottom. Simple.. Your the loser. Your leadership flew you into the ground. When you were making top buck and the AWA guys were making crap you thought "Bummer, lucky me".. Well now its the other way around. Why should the Pilot that got a job with AmericaWest have to be behind you at all!! Its their company. They built it, they should have the first right on any job.

If your company does not buy them they have no salvation. Chapter 7 will mean all will be lost.. U pilots especially will think nothing of pushing the AWA people out.

If you are in the 51st percentile at U when the lists are merged, you should be at the 51st percentile in the merged carrier. If you were in the 51st percentile at HP when the lists are merged, you should be in the 51st percentile in the merged carrier. (Change the "51st percentile" to any number between 1 and 100 and the statements holds true.)

The DOH argument fails for one big reason. There is no reason why HP employees should lose most of their seniority and become junior (in relative terms) to U employees who were working at a compnay that was close to liquidation.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I am not looking to improve my lot in life at the expense of a U employee. However, I should not lose my relative position to a U employee.

[post="272374"][/post]​

 

[AAviator]

Thats a complete crock Rico.

Air Cal did nothing for me. Reno did nothing for me, but bring all the employees and no A/C (just like Aircal). TWA brought their "treasure chest" of route authorities, a dead hub, now non existant Intl. svc. and all appeals to the pilot integration are complete. Glad to see you're soooo informed about that..

AWA pilots should be fenced off the 330. If/when the 350 shows up, its a different story.

So tell me sunshine, when the merged airline parks 50 U jets, should the combined list take the hit or just the U pilots? Aren't 40 or so scheduled to be returned to GE prior to the announcement? I guess you want AWA guys to fall on that sword too, eh? When refering to career expectations, remember the keys to U were simply handed to AWA.

I understand your optimism though, after the Shuttle guys got their Eastern date of hire, you have every reason to be optomistic.

I guess being at MDA, it really doesn't matter to you.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Welcome to the first steps of the pain you are all going to suffer.

Integration of the seniority lists with all the unions on the property is going to be a huge mess..

If your leadership is smart they will do to U like AA did to TWA.. Staple them to the bottom and start unloading the crap AWA does not want.. Unload the U people at the same rate.. Your the buying company.. They are the dying company. Treat them as such.. U employee's feel entitled, they are not. Pilots especially feel entitled.. Read the posts.. I have been with U for 20 years so why should I have to go to the bottom. Simple.. Your the loser. Your leadership flew you into the ground. When you were making top buck and the AWA guys were making crap you thought "Bummer, lucky me".. Well now its the other way around. Why should the Pilot that got a job with AmericaWest have to be behind you at all!! Its their company. They built it, they should have the first right on any job.

If your company does not buy them they have no salvation. Chapter 7 will mean all will be lost.. U pilots especially will think nothing of pushing the AWA people out.

[post="272619"][/post]​

What the hell is wrong with you?

 

[usjacket]

Date of hire is the only fair way to go , however I do believe the AWA employees in Arizona or where ever should have station seniority to prevent mass bumping. I always thought we should have had this in CLT at Usairways. At the very least if you get bumped out of a station you should be able to return before the job goes up for bid! Flame away!

 

[diogenes]

Remember the company was sooo keen to adjust seniority downward?

This thread explains how come.

It aso indicates the fun ahead intergrating.

I predict hardball ahead.

 

[Rico]

jastamechanic is one of the chief crybabies on here, long since departed from this company, yet bitter as a rotten lemon and wishes nothing other than our failure to "justify" his pathetic grudge towards US Airways...

As for the American fellow...

I guess being at MDA, it really doesn't matter to you.

Yeah, it really doesn't, since being at the bottom of the US Airways System Senority List, I expect (and should be at the bottom of any merged list too. So I do not "have a dog in this fight".

All I want to see is something as fair as possible for all involved. And especially those I work with daily, that have invested so many years into this place.

And as for AAL, you will always stand as the best example of outlandish self-interest at work. No matter if you supposedly gained nothing from those three mergers (while almost everyone from TWA is currently furloughed instead of you). You will still always have our total lack of respect...