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Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

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I can't wait too. As a stockholder, I'd love to see DL ACS and FAs give the company the vote that will cut DL's employee costs.

that is EXACTLY what unionization has done at other airlines... lower pay, more outsourcing.

IF DL people are stupid enough to do that, then they deserve what they vote for.
 
And thats not counting other compensation like benefits, pension etc are also broken down on the MIT Airline Data Project.
 
His numbers are wrong, he has posted Passenger Service, Ramp and Cargo combined, at US, AA, UA BTW and ATW are not under the same contact nor same pay.
 
My numbers were for FAs.
 
we did not take cuts in the 2014 contract   check again there dude.    we got gains plus insourcing work..  plus enhanced scope   you know the type of thing dl does not really have  
 
Notice how he left out WN Ramp, Cargo and Passenger Service?
 
$56,776 there is why, they make more than anyone, including DL and WN is unionized.
 
robbedagain said:
we did not take cuts in the 2014 contract   check again there dude.    we got gains plus insourcing work..  plus enhanced scope   you know the type of thing dl does not really have  
 
 
Yeah, for now.  Once DP gets the AA merger all settled in, he'll take the company in the red, and then take a trip down the US playbook, and put you guys thru the ringer twice...
Then see how much more you have then...
 
considering that DP is a numbers guy and the forecast even analysts are saying that the new AA is forecast to make billions  similar to DL     But for the next 3-5 yrs or til we get a JCBA we have scope protection, catering protection wage increases per the contract  changes cannot be made without negotiations unlike you folks at DL whereas they can change and they have made changes without much input from their employees.   They can and have outsourced various parts of the ramp regardless what the former revenue mgmt. dude claims w regards     The SOC for US/AA is rumored to be in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of this yr.  We are making more money now than before  and with fuel prices  don't see where the new AA would go RED and even if they did Id say it be a good BET that DL and UA would as well
 
robbedagain said:
considering that DP is a numbers guy and the forecast even analysts are saying that the new AA is forecast to make billions  similar to DL     But for the next 3-5 yrs or til we get a JCBA we have scope protection, catering protection wage increases per the contract  changes cannot be made without negotiations unlike you folks at DL whereas they can change and they have made changes without much input from their employees.   They can and have outsourced various parts of the ramp regardless what the former revenue mgmt. dude claims w regards     The SOC for US/AA is rumored to be in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of this yr.  We are making more money now than before  and with fuel prices  don't see where the new AA would go RED and even if they did Id say it be a good BET that DL and UA would as well
 
 
You are correct, DP is a brilliant numbers guy.  Post HP/US merger, US had the lowest paid workers, and the lowest labor costs relative its size.  Ask the pilots, some wide-body captains made more money driving the short school bus, than flying for US.  In any event, DP kept your pay at the bottom of the barrel level.  Sure, the new AA will make some money at first, with the aid of fancy accounting, it will look great, labor will be happy with their fat juicy contracts.  But let me let you in on a little secret.  ALL CEO's care about is shareholder happiness, after all it makes their pay bigger.  Another little secret, investors dislike high labor costs...
 
So things will be rosy and nice for a couple of years, as AA's labor costs go higher compared to its competitors,  and then, with more fancy accounting, DP will take AA down the river to court, or if not, he will have the IAM begging for concessions faster than you can say BOHICA...
 
and what you refuse to acknowledge is that AA's revenue performance is the worst of the big 4.

why do you think I repeatedly bring it up?

because it is intimately tied to what they can pay employees.

Not only does the increased competition affect AA's revenue performance but it also affects what they can pay their employees.

For years, people here have refused to acknowledge that AA has the greatest revenue threat to its financials of any airline other than AS. and yet for several quarters now after this merger that was supposed to produce such great network synergies, AA's revenue performance has been far below the rest of its peers.

AA SIMPLY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PAY ITS PEOPLE WHAT IT CANNOT GET IN INCREASED REVENUE.


700UW said:
And thats not counting other compensation like benefits, pension etc are also broken down on the MIT Airline Data Project.
 
no duh.


that's why I included them....
 
Kev3188 said:
Wow. Those are very different numbers from what was posted earlier....
 
 and if Kev was half as diligent in looking at the spreadsheet, he would see that there is a section entitled benefits.. and there is a separate category for FAs.

add the two numbers up and tell me if the total of AA FA salary and benefits compared to DL salary and benefits is not about 1.4-1.5%.

now tell me how many FAs that DL has hired and how many FAs that AA has hired and tell me how AA could come close to being higher paid when they have hired a fraction of the new hire FAs that DL has.

 
700UW said:
Notice how he left out WN Ramp, Cargo and Passenger Service?
 
$56,776 there is why, they make more than anyone, including DL and WN is unionized.
 
no, I didn't leave out the absolute numbers. no one has any doubt that WN employees are the highest compensated employees.

no one also is unaware that WN's labor negotiation process is at a complete standstill because Gary Kelly is not signing another contract that adds enormous labor costs.

did you notice that WN's labor costs as a result of the merger with FL jumped 10% in the last year as FL employees were brought up to WN scales?

he can't and won't do that again.

The difference in WN CASM with DL is less than the difference between DL and UA.

DL continues to increase its employee pay at a rate of around 10% PER YEAR> that is unprecedented in the airline industry and unmatched by any other airline right now.

WN isn't a point of comparison for total salaries - but they are getting NOTHING of value added to their contracts.

yoyodyne said:
Yeah, for now.  Once DP gets the AA merger all settled in, he'll take the company in the red, and then take a trip down the US playbook, and put you guys thru the ringer twice...
Then see how much more you have then...
and the sad thing is that Parker has so convinced so many of this employees that he will increase the gravy train that he rolled out for one reason and one reason only and that is to get the merger done, and get a fat paycheck in his pocket.

the economic fundamentals of the AA/US merger are not there. AA's revenue performance shows it.

He will have no choice but to get serious about cutting costs because the short-term drop in fuel prices has only provided a short-term window to avoid dealing with the problem of AA's bloated and increasingly costly workforce relative to its peers and the level of revenue that AA produces relative ot its peers.
 
that may be  but not just AA or even UA but all airline CEOs must answer to shareholders   Now that there are just 3 major Intl US carriers plus WN and a host of ULCC, given that fuel prices are lower than a yr ago  depending on how long they stay low  plus the fees the companies shall continue to make money   But as a numbers guy  I don't think it will go as low as it did before the merger.   on the other hand  it would also have to be negotiated on  unlike DL who can change it at any time.     Our scope is among the best if not the best in the airline industry   I think for the next 5 yrs (may be 10 but Im going out on a limb) will continue to see improvements and making billions upon billions   but only time will tell
 
AA has had two rounds of paycuts - 2003 and 2011 and only one of those was in BK. US had two rounds, both in BK.

both took place within 10 years.

Anyone who believes that pay is secure because it is in a CBA is foolish beyond measure. will the 3rd time be enough to convince you that you are wrong?

and it is precisely because AA like every US airline is accountable to shareholders that AA has to get revenue up or costs have to come down.

the ONLY reason AA is doing as well as they are is because of low fuel costs.

And given that EVERYONE will enjoy the same fuel costs within months because hedges will fall off or fuel prices will go up, then AA MUST be on the same level of revenue production.

Not even Parker tried to say that would happen on the latest earnings call. He just said the year over year comparisons would look better as AA laps its poor revenue performance and the bad 4th quarter of 2014 is the basis of comparision for the 4th quarter of 2015.

AA's revenue is not going to get better for a good while. WN is going nuts pulling passengers over to DAL. Latin America's economies are set for a couple years of bad performance. competition is increasing in Latin America and in AA's key int'l markets.

Enjoy the honeymoon. It simply cannot last.

and don't go buying a house using the majority of your current and expected salary based on CBAs or you will be personally hurting as bad as AA will in a few years.
 
The data is not correct that you are using.

At AA, US, UA Passenger Service are not in the same CBA, it doesnt reflect the ramp jobs only.
 
And ironic that you fail to notice the FA numbers, where DL isnt the highest paid.
 
"D E L T A  has more people at more stations......yada yada yada"
 
(THANK YOU IAM FOR FIGHTING TO KEEP FORTY RAMP STATIONS OPEN AND NOT LETTING NW MANAGEMENT FOLLOW DL's POLICY OF OUTSOURCING. Delta cut down to a grand total of 14 DL manned ramp stations).
 
The majority of the ramp stations at DL are open today because the IAM negotiated on behalf of its members to keep them staffed with NW rampers following the NW bankruptcy proceedings.
 
WT....selective memory at it's finest!
 
the yada, yada comes from those of you who keep mindlessly parroting that DL employees have no scope and DL can cut anything they want whenever they want.

I have not doubted that the IAM negotiated keeping stations open at NW and I am happy for those who have been able to build or maintain their lives because of that.

but you can't also argue that DL has no scope or can do what they want when they have chosen to honor what WN brought to the table instead of closing it, which is exactly what has happened at AA and UA, even with CBAs.

as for salary and compensation data from the data, you can yell about it all you want but it is the most accurate data that is available but it is an average and includes airport workgroups that at unionized airlines are usually separated.

but it is REAL data that reflects what actually happens and not what is in a CBA and that includes for FAs.

and when you add the salary and benefit information, DL and AA FAs are separated by just 1.5%. given that DL has a far lower seniority level, it is impossible to argue that AA FAs actually make more in real life


when you can bring REAL usage data and not what is in a CBA but shows nothing about reality, then the DOT data is the best there is.
 
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