IAM FLEET SERVICE

[Black Magic]

I agree with alot Jester says. If you work on the Southwest ramp they will bust your arse with a whip! One team-lead and one assist loading and unloading the 737 around the clock with lots of quick-turns.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I will agree with much of what you say, but there are limits.

For example, there are plenty of 10 year employees I would trade for a new hire because, I have a chance of getting some productivity out of the new hire whereas the "experienced" agent I would need to carry the entire shift. No amount of extra pay is going to motivate these people any further and with an union protecting even on-duty drunks, replacing them would be impossible, thus so much for the "100% all day, every day" outcome. You know the types: The bin-avoidance guys, The newspaper-coffee-cup-walking-around guys, The chalk-kicking-water-filling-ground-power-connecting guys, The run-one-flight-per-a-shift guys, and The download-youporn.com-wireless-laptop guys.

Secondly, from a management perspective, would a 20-year employee be that much better than a 5-year employee? Probably not, but the pay difference would be substantially higher. So the productivity benefits you suggest probably wouldn't happen. Parker is sadly right... the company is not well-suited for a ramp full of topped-out employees when people with similar abilities (but less time) could do the job for far less. There is reason why Southwest offered buy-out options to employees because the experience lost along with one time cash incentive was cost less than the higher wages being paid.

So prognosticates Jester.

Jester,
your contempt for workers is apparent in your posts. Ok, everyone who works the ramp are slobs and drunks, so sez jester, of course you are excluded. The thing you don't realize is that your second point is actually your first point specifically defined, i.e., both your points are management points.
OTOH, there is a real human predicament that happens when there is disrespect and injustice. More workers no longer care about customers, shareholders, or the company they work for. Workers that continue to get pissed on start getting pissed off, and in this case they
are 'pissed off like hell'. It's called fairness and when that is violated, one can almost certainly get ready for its reward. Check the DOT numbers. Your company still thinks fair is foul but it is learning a 'painful' lesson indeed in the human predicament. Who made those workers you described in your first paragraph?

Until your company can do the math on that one, it will continue to experience 'painful' figures in the media and it will not be able to count on the masses to do backflips for them like Parker's boy does.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman 1487 ORD

 

[pit_till_death]

PIT, you reply with the following:

"How does that suit feel Jester??? Do you ever wonder why US was one of the best quality products in the industry??? People loved USAir, and the employees loved working here. You used to say that "I work for USAir, and people would go, ""OOH, that's a good job, you're lucky."" You know why????? MONEY. People were paid fairly and went the extra mile. PERIOD. You used to feel like you were worth what you were paid. Again, I don't EXPECT to be paid at the top tier of the industry, but industry standard, YES. Again, we are not in bankrupcy any longer, execs are renegotiating their contracts, vp's are being hired, and the balance sheet is WAY in the black. We should not be bottom feeders. And don't even try to compare US to WN. Thier profit sharing and 401k and other incentives are not even close to ours. It's like comparing apples to rocks. And by the way, take a look at how many WN guys took the buyout. NOT MANY. You know why????? They are paid way too well to leave."

Allow me to retort:

1) Do you realize that when I spoke of productivity, did you forget that Southwest will turn 6-7 mainline flights in 8 hours versus 4 or less for a typical US ramper?




2) Do you forget that Southwest turns their planes in 25-30 minutes EVERY flight versus our ground times approaching one hour and the scheduled quick turn of 30 minutes being the exception?

3) Do you think Point 1 and 2 leads to greater productivity (and profits), not to mention, their people can do it while I doubt most of us could do this? (Maybe Chill's assertion of the average age of a Southwest employee being 34 should tell you something.)

4) Do you understand that the industry has changed in the past 20 years and the glory days of rampers being paid as much as nurses ended with de-regulation in the late 70s?

5) Do you realize that low-skilled, low-education jobs are typically not going to make the big bucks in a competitive market, especially in a global economy?

6) Do you realize that US Airways filed bankruptcy twice in large part due to high labor and benefit costs?

7) Do you realize that if not for Southwest's fortuitousness fuel hedge, they would have lost money regardless of their industry high productivity and progressive management thinking?

8) Do you realize that airlines that have tried to mirror the Southwest model of P2P are in the dust bin of business history?

9) Do you realize that your cheerleading for "being paid fairly and going the extra mile" will fall on deaf management ears?


There's your reality check, and if you want to bust ass to have the Southwest experience, then you should apply.

So chastises Jester.

Ohhhhh Jester, Jester,

Have you've ever seen a WN flight being worked??? There are 2 guys in EACH bin, 2 guys at the end of EACH belt, 2 runners, 2 cateres, and a lead working EACH flight. Thats 9 guys to our 3 (if we're lucky)PER FLIGHT. And if you don't believe me, go on the ramp in PHL and watch them. I have. And I have to say, I didn't believe it myself until I saw it. Also, WN are only working 737's, not 757's, 321's, etc. If you can't turn a plane in 30 minutes, there is something terribly wrong.

If you convert $17 and change per hour in the 70's and 80's, that's about $27-$30/hr today. I believe I stated industry standard wages, which amount to around $21/hr.

Do you realize that US has been hedging fuel also for the past 2 years??

And for your last "retort", I don't give a rats a@@ what management thinks. They are not bargaining for me. Then again, it seems as if nobody is.

 

[Black Magic]

I dont know whats going on in phl with WN. But here in phx (big WN operation). They have one team-lead and one assist doing flights, I witness it every day. Personally I have never seen 2 agents working in the front bin together of a 737. Crazy small space!

 

[pjirish317]

Who cares about WN. We are not them, we do not have the business model that WN has, We do not have the manpower on the ramp that WN has, and we work more that 1 type of A/C. So please enough about WN this and WN that. This is about US Fleet Service getting screwed over by the company/I'll Ask Management for a fair and equitable agreement. All we want is to be treated fairly and with respect.

 

[pit_till_death]

Who cares about WN. We are not them, we do not have the business model that WN has, We do not have the manpower on the ramp that WN has, and we work more that 1 type of A/C. So please enough about WN this and WN that. This is about US Fleet Service getting screwed over by the company/I'll Ask Management for a fair and equitable agreement. All we want is to be treated fairly and with respect.

You're right irish. I was just trying to get jester to loosen his tie.

 

[pjirish317]

You're right irish. I was just trying to get jester to loosen his tie.

I don't think that will ever happen!!!

 

[Tim Nelson]

Ohhhhh Jester, Jester,

Have you've ever seen a WN flight being worked??? There are 2 guys in EACH bin, 2 guys at the end of EACH belt, 2 runners, 2 cateres, and a lead working EACH flight. Thats 9 guys to our 3 (if we're lucky)PER FLIGHT. And if you don't believe me, go on the ramp in PHL and watch them. I have. And I have to say, I didn't believe it myself until I saw it. Also, WN are only working 737's, not 757's, 321's, etc. If you can't turn a plane in 30 minutes, there is something terribly wrong.

If you convert $17 and change per hour in the 70's and 80's, that's about $27-$30/hr today. I believe I stated industry standard wages, which amount to around $21/hr.

Do you realize that US has been hedging fuel also for the past 2 years??

And for your last "retort", I don't give a rats a@@ what management thinks. They are not bargaining for me. Then again, it seems as if nobody is.

Your absolutely correct Pit till death. But the main negotiators in this round of negotiations are the rampers themselves. Parker knows Canale has no 'juice' and nobody listens to him. Parker's choice is to offer a fair contract or experience 'great pain' and embarassment with another turndown.

This company has 3.5 billion dollars, new VP's weekly, Parker with a new big fat contract, $54 million to burn on two gates, money to burn for new uniforms. But Parker knows he needs to sucker fleet first before he can offer more to mechanics and then the pilots. If fleet service are just slobs that Parker doesn't have to deal with then he would have shelved fleet service until 2010.

However, Jester is incorrect in his other assessments and his statements explicitly show he has age related discrimminating biases, perhaps because of a personal issue. A few of his other points aren't established.

Jester sez: Do you understand that the industry has changed in the past 20 years and the glory days of rampers being paid as much as nurses ended with de-regulation in the late 70s?

Tim sez: I don't care. WN makes $24, other airlines pay over $21, that's the industry average and that has always been the barometer of what is fair. Nobody is asking to get paid like a nurse, just what other rampers make, that's all.

Jester sez: Do you realize that low-skilled, low-education jobs are typically not going to make the big bucks in a competitive market, especially in a global economy?

Tim sez: Nobody is asking for big bucks, just asking for a fair industry wage $21hr. Otherwise, shut down negotiations right now and screw Parker's transition plans. Sorry.

Jester sez: Do you realize that US Airways filed bankruptcy twice in large part due to high labor and benefit costs?

Tim Sez: US AIRWAYS filed bankruptcy because management was inept. Bottom line and everbody knows this. However, the environment has changed. US AIRWAYS has the second best balance sheet in the industry and has been out of bankruptcy for two years now.

Jester sez: Do you realize that your cheerleading for "being paid fairly and going the extra mile" will fall on deaf management ears?

Tim sez: Do you realize that Parker can't wait till 2010 and that any more goofy TA's from Parker will continue to fall on fleet service deaf ears? Parker has to find a way to open up the ears of fleet service and he isn't going to do it offering 'piss clam' contracts. Until then, workers will stay 'pissed off like hell' and perhaps moreso.

Bottom line: If fleet service doesn't get a contract with dignity and respect, then Parker will get his reward. Screw transition...screw it all.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman 1487 ORD

 

[Jester]

I have seemed to have struck a nerve, so much so that I got Tim to reply on a Sunday, no less.

Some people are protesting too much, did I describe some of you within my description of "The bin-avoidance guys, The newspaper-coffee-cup-walking-around guys, The chalk-kicking-water-filling-ground-power-connecting guys, The run-one-flight-per-a-shift guys, and The download-youporn.com-wireless-laptop guys"?

Where to begin? So much venom and so little bandwidth...

I have watched plenty of Southwest flights in action as both LAS and PHX are both major Southwest operations, but I have never seen two rampers in the forward bin of a 737 and I see no reason unless they were doing their ramp version of Fire Island. Furthermore, I typically see one runner, one lead, and two assist, and I never heard of counting the caterers as part of the team. Why not count the fuelers and the upstairs concessionary people too? If people are going to mention Southwest as a comparison of what we should earn, then let it be make a valid comparison of work load involved.

Additionally, it doesn't matter to be in terms of difficulty between Southwest 737's and our A319's, if anything the A319's would be easier as it has more headroom in the bins and I stack front or back alone. The A320's are marginally more difficult, but only if there is large amounts of cargo, because otherwise short stacking 80 in the forward and 90 in the aft isn't a big deal alone. Given that A320's and smaller are the large majority of the fleet, I think the argument of varied fleet vs. Southwest is specious, at best. And we don't turn planes in 40 minutes, at least, on time typically.

Sorry, $21/hour for unskilled, uneducated work is "big bucks" considering that most college graduates don't earn that immediately after college, when the average income in the US is $36,000 and most people aren't having the luxury of 3 hours of down time during a typical 8 hour shift.

Bankruptcy struck 4 of the 6 legacy carriers, while both AA and CO flirted with the idea until they squeezed wage and benefit concessions without going Chapter 11, but of course, because all those airline manages were "inept", right, Tim?

Parker can wait. Parker rather enjoys paying West far less than East. In fact, Parker could really enjoy just subbing out the entire ramp operations if wage demands become excessive. Don't think it could happen? Look at Alaska and Midwest in their hubs of SEA and MKE.

And Tim, do I have contempt for workers? I have contempt for those who are drunk or lazy, becuase they endanger me or I am doing their work. Who created these problems? Well, how about those that defend those same employees? Any guesses? Three letters, and I'll spot you two of them... I and A and there are no more vowels in the puzzle. Listen to the hue and cry when management actually started to can dozens people in PHX with many no-shows and scores of sick calls during a year, but the union was there to defend the employees actions. If you are going to create the straw man argument that I said "all" ramp agents were lazy, drunken, etc. then you will be called on it, because I never said any such thing. If you have any questions, I'll be sleeping on the coach in the PHX bag room.

Furthermore, investors didn't pump in $3.5 billion to give everyone a raise and the inane arguments of the CIC by the IAM shows the desperation of the mentality where need is a claim.

While as much I would like to continue, I must answer to a bantering wife who is giving me an evil look of being online too long.

So cajoled has been Jester.

 

[The Bagfather]

What did Ron Roth do to stop the company from changing starting
pay from $7.50 to $9.00 with no other pay raise. What did Ron
Roth do to inform PHX that they could continue section 6 under
the TWU contract.
Now what will Ron Roth do to get rid of Canale.

 

[orioleman]

JESTER
"but I have never seen two rampers in the forward bin of a 737 and I see no reason unless they were doing their ramp version of Fire Island."

well better get use to it cause if you ever fall under the IAM contract that's how it works. It's called SAFETY.

but having guess you have never ripped your rotator / pulled your lower lumbar / or had pulled ligaments in your knees,

well all in do time you young buck all in do time. And when you have to go under the knife to get all that fix miss 6 months

for rehab use all your sick time fight with workers comp and find out that it STILL isn't right and have to live with the pain the

rest of your life , then maybe just maybe you wouldn't jump on the first 1.50 raise thrown at you because if you spend any length

of time doing this job you will have injurys don't believe me check back in 5 to 10 years, Unless of course YOUR one of the

schemers you were describing .

 

[orioleman]

Jester,
"Furthermore, I typically see one runner, one lead, and two assist, and I never heard of counting the caterers as part of the team. Why not count the fuelers and the upstairs concessionary people too? If people are going to mention Southwest as a comparison of what we should earn, then let it be make a valid comparison of work load involved."

sounds like you spend alot of time watching WN instead of working your ramp...HMMMMM

 

[pjirish317]

Here is a question for any of the I'll Ask Management agc's or other officials who look at this site. Why hasn't the west been folded into our CBA? Did the company tell you guys not to? Did the company tell you guys not to pursue section 6 negs for the west? Why are you guys so inept at negotiating with this company? Do you guys not realize that this company is not in BK naymore and that we should not get concessionary T/A's to vote on? When are you guys gonna wake up. When you all are voted out of the $100,000 club? Why have our dues always gone up, along with your salaries, while our salaries have gone down? 700UW I know you will chime in about how "hard" it is to neg with this company and how you were on the M & R NC. That was then this is now. The I'll Ask Management's negotiating team needs to grow some ba**s and come back from these talk's with an acceptable agreement for us, otherwise, hopefully all of Fleet Service will vote another POS T/A down.

 

[necigrad]

I haven't paid a lot of attention to WN, but I have noticed many staffing variations from station to station and even shift to shift in the SAME station. Many out stations have something like 5 people for working on the aircraft at the gate. These 5 people are resopnsible for getting the bags to the gate, bringing the plane in, downloading it, running the bags to the carosul, doing the lavs and water, uploading it, and pushing it. In some hubs they have have 5 (or more) persons on the gate, plus someone for lavs, one or more runners, seperate bagroom runners, cargo agents to help with the download... Having two people in a bin can be a luxury. There is NOTHING in the GOM that specifies two persons in a bin. There is NOTHING int he GOM that specifes how many persons are needed to turn a flight (other then to marshal in and push out). Some shifts may have numerous teams (usually 3 persons); in slow times they may help each other out, when it's busy they may be on their own. That INCLUDES the lead. Sometimes US is staffed like WN on the ramp, other times it's not staffed at all.

 

[Jester]

JESTER
"but I have never seen two rampers in the forward bin of a 737 and I see no reason unless they were doing their ramp version of Fire Island."

well better get use to it cause if you ever fall under the IAM contract that's how it works. It's called SAFETY. but having guess you have never ripped your rotator / pulled your lower lumbar / or had pulled ligaments in your knees, well all in do time you young buck all in do time. And when you have to go under the knife to get all that fix miss 6 months for rehab use all your sick time fight with workers comp and find out that it STILL isn't right and have to live with the pain the
rest of your life , then maybe just maybe you wouldn't jump on the first 1.50 raise thrown at you because if you spend any length of time doing this job you will have injurys don't believe me check back in 5 to 10 years, Unless of course YOUR one of the schemers you were describing .

sounds like you spend alot of time watching WN instead of working your ramp...HMMMMM

O-man,

Two rampers in the forward bin of a B737 as being the standard? Now I can see why US Airways went bankrupt twice. I recall flying them years ago and it looked as if the paychecks were loaded on as COMAT, only to realize that's the degree of ramp overstaffing as it was once done. Not to mention, mechanics reading novels and sleeping on aircraft tugs awaiting push back instructions from the flight deck. I guess it was all part of the work rules which lead to financial ruin.

Yes, you are right... I do spend time watching and learning. It is part of a curious mind, especially given my vantage point between flights to see how Southwest handles their ground operations. What makes their operations successful and ours near the bottom? I particularly enjoy when I am flying Southwest and from the view of the gate area where up close I can note how things are done... I mean if that's okay with you on my own time, right?

Also you act as if I haven't done this job for awhile, nor have had any injuries. I have had a several OJIs from shoulder spasms, back strains, finger jams, 3rd burns from air start units, tendinistis in elbows and wrists, scalp gashes requiring stitches after striking an antenna, and a few eye sprayings of Skydrol... it's all part of the job. Frankly, some people shouldn't be out here if they are prone to more serious injuries performing routine work. Gate agents and loaders should be built like sumo wrestlers and not like gymnasts.

By the way, were you the lead from BWI who was working on Sudoku puzzles between flights while in PHX?

So inquires Jester.