Nov/Dec 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Beancounter]

 
As far as Karma goes, what do you think those folks in the Philippines and IL did to deserve what happened to them?

Definitely puts our petty squabbles into perspective doesn't it. I saw some more pictures on the internet, hard to comprehend the destruction and loss of life.

Bean

 

[Phoenix]

Why are you east guys in such an uproar about the west pilots getting a seat at the table? Yous all wanted a do over didn't ya?

You didn't really think that MB which stipulates a fair and equitable integration would allow a union controlled by the east to determine a list combining east/west did you?

I don't think the problem here is the definition of, "binding arbitration," the problem is comprehending, "fair and equitable." I'm not even going to start into, "career expectations." 🙂

Bean

 
 
You are asking the court to implicitly assume that USAPA will, in the future, commit a breach of its DFR... 
 
Have you already forgotten that you are in front of Judge Silver to prove that USAPA breached its DFR and caused harm in the past?  This is a DFR trial... Silver isn't the Director of the Department of Future DFR Prevention....  The burden of proof in a DFR TRIAL is about proving harm that has already occurred.... now you want Judge Silver to ignore her responsibility to judge whether or not the PLAINTIFF has met THEIR burden of proof, and instead ASSUME USAPA will violate its duty in the FUTURE.    
 
You guys have always implicitly assumed that USAPA is guilty and will always be guilty in the future.   Right now is a good time to start with some integrity about admitting your burden of proving your claims.   🙂

 

[Beancounter]

You are asking the court to implicitly assume that USAPA will, in the future, commit a breach of its DFR... 
 
Have you already forgotten that you are in front of Judge Silver to prove that USAPA breached its DFR and caused harm in the past?  This is a DFR trial... Silver isn't the Director of the Department of Future DFR Prevention....  The burden of proof in a DFR TRIAL is about proving harm that has already occurred.... now you want Judge Silver to ignore her responsibility to judge whether or not the PLAINTIFF has met THEIR burden of proof, and instead ASSUME USAPA will violate its duty in the FUTURE.    
 
You guys have always implicitly assumed that USAPA is guilty and will always be guilty in the future.   Right now is a good time to start with some integrity about admitting your burden of proving your claims.   🙂

So you're saying USAPA is dropping DOH and accepting the NIc??? 😱 If so, then I apologize for assuming their guilt.

Bean

 

[Phoenix]

So you're saying USAPA is dropping DOH and accepting the NIc??? 😱 If so, then I apologize for assuming their guilt.
Bean

Don't worry about what I'm saying, and don't apologize for implicitly assuming guilt of a DFR, just worry yourself about the standard and burden of proof, especially if Silver grants Marty's request that she rule without regard to the law.

 

[snapthis]

Don't worry about what I'm saying, and don't apologize for implicitly assuming guilt of a DFR, just worry yourself about the standard and burden of proof, especially if Silver grants Marty's request that she rule without regard to the law.

Rule without regard to the law?

That's funny coming from an Usapian who thinks binding arbitration is not so binding.

Rules only apply when you don't get your way. Your like that annoying kid who runs to mommy when dad says no. Just like a Brat who keeps tugging on shirttails until you get spanked.

Judge Silver has the paddle. We'll see if she's had enough of USAPA's shenanigans.

 

[Beancounter]

Don't worry about what I'm saying, and don't apologize for implicitly assuming guilt of a DFR, just worry yourself about the standard and burden of proof, especially if Silver grants Marty's request that she rule without regard to the law.

You totally lost me. So now you're saying you're intent on committing a DFR?

Bean

 

[snapthis]

You signed up for the crap career the second you hitched to Franke. You helped bring the rest of the industry down with your crap pay, benefits and work rules. You are lucky you hooked into the East operation, because without them NOBODY had an interest in your pathetic route structure. They still don't. You are just a pathetic remora tailing and stealing the moneymaking east operation.

 
Back in 2008, it was the East demanding the West get crap pay. Who's still on that crap pay? Maybe the merger and real unon representation can help the situation.
 
Good thing you elected USAPA to improve those wages and benefits.
 
 
"luvthe9, on Mar 30 2008, 11:01 AM, said:
 

The east MEC is in the process of demanding to the company that the west pilots be put under LOA 93 immediately!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

[767one]

A first class seat in a 320 is not adequate for rest with an IRO but it's OK for a Captain and F/O to DH in coach and fly back the same day.

That's how the government insures we are well rested.

Trader,

Sad to say but it is typical of government thinking. I guess the best way to handle it is to finish your DH and then call in fatigued and fly back the next day. I imagine that might get the attention of the CP. In theory the asap and nasa reports are another way to get their attention assuming you could get enough pilots to file them after returning to base.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Pi brat]

So you're saying USAPA is dropping DOH and accepting the NIc??? 😱 If so, then I apologize for assuming their guilt.

Bean

Let me try this another way. Judge Silver distilled this case to one point, didn't she? DID(past tense) USAPA fail it's DFR by not including the Nic in the MOU? First you would have to ignore the fact that USAPA was only one party to the MOU and she release the other one that was being sued-the company. Then you have to ignore the fact that a leader of AOL was in on writing the MOU, didn't like the language that was in there and still advised you to vote for it. Then you have to ignore that the language is pretty clear that we wouldn't use the Nic(how did you know to sue if not?). Then you have to ignore the laughable "We were duped!" defense. Then we have her previous ruling that says we indeed can abandon the Nic(with LUP). After all of that then you say ok, what is the harm? What if we go to arbitration and you get the Nic, or something better, then what is the harm? The MOU says we won't change the seniority lists in effect and we all agreed to that, so you couldn't get the Nic any earlier than the MB process, we agreed to that. That's how I see it with the ruling of the 9th and why you have to actually see IF harm occurs and what the harm is.
 
If the company was so concerned with the fair representation of the west pilots, why didn't they insist on separate representation at MB in the MOU. If not for this suit, it wouldn't have come up. Did they know you were going to sue and that's why they didn't bother? Did you collude with them?
 
All that said, I expect for you to at least get separate status in MB.

 

[Pi brat]

A question for any westie in the know. Gary Hummel claimed in his deposition of Sept. 17th that Kirby insisted that seniority not be dealt with in the MOU. Why didn't the west call Kirby to testify about this? If this is true, why was the company released from the suit and how can USAPA be liable?
 
·A.· ·So at that meeting Dave Bates, his
·8· overriding concern was on how USAPA was going to
·9· handle their current seniority integration issue
10· and would that be handled prior to any merger with
11· American.· And that concern was answered by Scott
12· Kirby, who made it perfectly clear that we weren't
13· going to deal with seniority in any way, shape or
14· form, that the McCaskill-Bond process would allow
15· us to deal with that at a later date, that we would
16· be able to work towards an MOU provided that there
17· was no discussion on seniority and that the
18· seniority issue would be dealt with after the
19· merger.

 

[nevergiveup]

Let me try this another way. Judge Silver distilled this case to one point, didn't she? DID(past tense) USAPA fail it's DFR by not including the Nic in the MOU? First you would have to ignore the fact that USAPA was only one party to the MOU and she release the other one that was being sued-the company. Then you have to ignore the fact that a leader of AOL was in on writing the MOU, didn't like the language that was in there and still advised you to vote for it. Then you have to ignore that the language is pretty clear that we wouldn't use the Nic(how did you know to sue if not?). Then you have to ignore the laughable "We were duped!" defense. Then we have her previous ruling that says we indeed can abandon the Nic(with LUP). After all of that then you say ok, what is the harm? What if we go to arbitration and you get the Nic, or something better, then what is the harm? The MOU says we won't change the seniority lists in effect and we all agreed to that, so you couldn't get the Nic any earlier than the MB process, we agreed to that. That's how I see it with the ruling of the 9th and why you have to actually see IF harm occurs and what the harm is.
 
If the company was so concerned with the fair representation of the west pilots, why didn't they insist on separate representation at MB in the MOU. If not for this suit, it wouldn't have come up. Did they know you were going to sue and that's why they didn't bother? Did you collude with them?
 
All that said, I expect for you to at least get separate status in MB.

The west placed their fate in the hands of USAPA. They could have kept ALPA on the property by agreeing to a fence but chose not to. If they feel that they a case for DFR after MB, they will certainly be free to try and sue USAPA. Many of us will be gone by that time. 

 

[Phoenix]

You totally lost me. So now you're saying you're intent on committing a DFR?
Bean

No. I'm saying you have a lawyer who has never once been intent on proving anyone committed a DFR, but has always based every argument on the implicit assumption that a DFR occurred. You and your lawyers have ALWAYS argued that USAPA must prove their innocence. BIG MISTAKE!! 🙂

 

[Hate2fly]

Doc 279

Notice the email quote from Maliga!

"Regardless of what Andy and Marty say tomorrow , it is a no vote from me on the MOU...The MOU is [sh*t], and it's even worse without the Nic."

Wow! Looks like the west laid down their swords for the money.

Silver's creative writing class is going to be fun to watch.

Hate

 

[Portly Dorman]

Oh stop. Then so do the former Empire, PSA and Piedmont pilots. You guys are dues paying USAPA members. You chose to delay integration by helping the company keep the East group split on pay. Real funny until a 18 wheeler aka a merger T Boned you. You hung it out way to long, and now you lost it all.

 
The West chose??? Really??? 
 
Didn't Sewer with a lisp say we don't need the west to get a contract, 'seniority like crew meals' .
 
Think its the McCleary clan that got you here.

 

[Hate2fly]

Doc 281-2

Check out the west email chain.

Hate