Nov/Dec 2013 Pilot Discussion

[snapthis]

 
The captain has final authority, and is legally able to ignore company policy, procedure, and even FARs if, in his/her judgement, doing so would be safer than not.
 
It does not mean the captain will get a "free pass" in the aftermath of any violation of policy, procedure or FAR.  The captain might be subject to dismissal, prosecution, loss of license, etc. if he/she cannot show that the decision was in fact based on his/her better judgement.
 
If the F/O says "go around," and the captain feels that the circumstances would dictate otherwise, then there will be no go around.
There may be "hell to pay in the morning," but the captain, by federal law, is still in charge and can override any judgement of the first officer in every case.  Period.  
 
(Do you really have a pilot license?  I mean, anything beyond "Recreational Pilot"?)

 
 KV nailed it.
 
If you fly an airplane the way y'all run the "union" we are going  around due to the approach being unstable.
 
Fyi, I've been a licensed recreactional pilot since '79.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The captain has final authority, and is legally able to ignore company policy, procedure, and even FARs if, in his/her judgement, doing so would be safer than not.
 
It does not mean the captain will get a "free pass" in the aftermath of any violation of policy, procedure or FAR.  The captain might be subject to dismissal, prosecution, loss of license, etc. if he/she cannot show that the decision was in fact based on his/her better judgement.
 
If the F/O says "go around," and the captain feels that the circumstances would dictate otherwise, then there will be no go around.
There may be "hell to pay in the morning," but the captain, by federal law, is still in charge and can override any judgement of the first officer in every case.  Period.  
 
(Do you really have a pilot license?  I mean, anything beyond "Recreational Pilot"?)

I can get fatigued at the end of a long day, lose situational awareness. The history of aircraft accidents clearly demonstrates that go-arounds would have prevented far, far more mishaps than not. Imminent fuel exhaustion being possibly one exception. Too many of the approach accident reports I have read were a case of the Capt 'feeling' that circumstances dictated continuing the approach. In the end, there was no morning after, only eternity.

Similarly, if I am approaching the gate with personnel and equipment in the vicinity, and the F/O says STOP, that's what I do. That's one of the things I rely on from a F/O.

 

[snapthis]

Hey M&M,
 
I picture you the guy wearing your uniform out to dinner or at the movies to impress yourself.
 
Captain
 
Your attitude reminds me the story of this guy, a story I read recently on the message boards:
 
My daughter worked over the summer as a bartender on the Island Ferry which shuttles between Galilee, RI, Newport, RI and Block Island, RI. Over the Labor Day weekend on the way to "the block" a man in his early 60's with dyed blond hair orders a drink at her bar..... wearing a US Airways captain's uniform, no ID, no hat, but with the jacket on a hot day. She asks the man what airline would allow him to drink in uniform and he told her he worked for American Airlines and it was not a problem as long as he was off duty. She informed him that his wings were clearly the US Airways logo and got a muddled response about the merger with American. My smartass daughter then filled him in on the DOJ lawsuit and the fact that there wasn't yet a merger. When he asked what made a "server girl" so damned smart she told him about her dad and said now she knows why I am embarrassed to wear the US Airways uniform.

 

[nycbusdriver]

 
 KV nailed it.
 
If you fly an airplane the way y'all run the "union" we are going  around due to the approach being unstable.
 
Fyi, I've been a licensed recreactional pilot since '79.

 
Good for you!  Consider working on your Private.  It will likely get you back into the books, which is something you so obviously need to do.

 

[snapthis]

 
Good for you!  Consider working on your Private.  It will likely get you back into the books, which is something you so obviously need to do.

 
Sure, I'll get to that right after I get finished watching the NJ election results.
 
It's Christie..What do you think about that, lefty?
 
I'm thinking your gal Hillary is in trouble in 2016.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I can get fatigued at the end of a long day, lose situational awareness. The history of aircraft accidents clearly demonstrates that go-arounds would have prevented far, far more mishaps than not. Imminent fuel exhaustion being possibly one exception. Too many of the approach accident reports I have read were a case of the Capt 'feeling' that circumstances dictated continuing the approach. In the end, there was no morning after, only eternity.

Similarly, if I am approaching the gate with personnel and equipment in the vicinity, and the F/O says STOP, that's what I do. That's one of the things I rely on from a F/O.

 
 
No question that I agree with your sentiment entirely.  But that does not mean that "company procedure" always needs to trump judgement.  It does not, and the legal basis for that assertion is quite clear.
 
Case in point: June 12, 1972.  American Airlines Flight 96, ORD-LAX.  A DC-10.  We all know the story, and the "eternity" that ensued.  In analyzing the crash, the invesitgaots determined that the Captain followed procedure extremely well.  Unfortunately, hanging on to the prescribed airspeed after the engine loss did not allow him to maintain control.  In simulator re-enactments, the "sloppy" pilots who let the airspeed increase flew out of the event and landed successfully.
 
Sure, cases like this are (thankfully) rare exceptions to the rule, and procedure will almost always be the best course of action.  But this profession can sometimes benefit from experience and judgement of the pilots who are actually flying the airplanes, rather than the engineers who are designing them and the procedures.
 
Someone HAS to be in charge.  Someone's judgement MUST prevail over all others.  The law makes that determination, and makes it very clearly.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I know some here are arguing for the sake of arguing. I understand given the climate. But there should be no disagreement among us on this issue.

Just put yourself in the right seat. It's a dark night in IMC conditions and you are approaching minimums when you realize, for whatever reason, that the gear is still up. You shout 'go around' and the captain replies, 'it's okay, runway in sight'.

Your move.

'84

 

[nycbusdriver]

 
Sure, I'll get to that right after I get finished watching the NJ election results.
 
It's Christie..What do you think about that, lefty?
 
I'm thinking your gal Hillary is in trouble in 2016.

 
 
What the f*** does that have to do with the price of eggs?
 
You have no reasonable response, so you change the subject?  Intellectual cowardice.

 

[luvthe9]

Hey M&M,
 
I picture you the guy wearing your uniform out to dinner or at the movies to impress yourself.
 
Captain
 
Your attitude reminds me the story of this guy, a story I read recently on the message boards:
 
My daughter worked over the summer as a bartender on the Island Ferry which shuttles between Galilee, RI, Newport, RI and Block Island, RI. Over the Labor Day weekend on the way to "the block" a man in his early 60's with dyed blond hair orders a drink at her bar..... wearing a US Airways captain's uniform, no ID, no hat, but with the jacket on a hot day. She asks the man what airline would allow him to drink in uniform and he told her he worked for American Airlines and it was not a problem as long as he was off duty. She informed him that his wings were clearly the US Airways logo and got a muddled response about the merger with American. My smartass daughter then filled him in on the DOJ lawsuit and the fact that there wasn't yet a merger. When he asked what made a "server girl" so damned smart she told him about her dad and said now she knows why I am embarrassed to wear the US Airways uniform.

Come on JJ. That was Moes in MIA. And it was an AWA crew.

 

[Piedmont1984]

nyc

The ORD crash (like the Hudson event) were full blown emergencies and in those rare situations I agree with you, reflex, skills, experience trump procedure during those critical seconds. My point is only that a go-around call is meant to avoid an emergency situation and in most instances it will.

Enough said on this from me.

'84

 

[snapthis]

 
 
What the f*** does that have to do with the price of eggs?
 
You have no reasonable response, so you change the subject?  Intellectual cowardice.

I question your judgement as a Usapian and as an admitted liberal.
 
I paid about $2 for a dozen eggs. How much did you pay?
 
What does LOA 93 buy in NYC when it comes to housing?
 
A Habitrail?

 

[nycbusdriver]

nyc

The ORD crash (like the Hudson event) were full blown emergencies and in those rare situations I agree with you, reflex, skills, experience trump procedure during those critical seconds. My point is only that a go-around call is meant to avoid an emergency situation and in most instances it will.

Enough said on this from me.

'84

 
Agreed.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I question your judgement as a Usapian and as an admitted liberal.
 
I paid about $2 for a dozen eggs. How much did you pay?
 
What does LOA 93 buy in NYC when it comes to housing?
 
A Habitrail?

 
Better to be on a bread line in Manhattan than King of the Phoenix Sandbox.
 
Still can't stay on topic, huh?  Mental lightweight.  I doubt you can pass the Private Pilot written.

 

[snapthis]

 
Better to be on a bread line in Manhattan than King of the Phoenix Sandbox.
 
Still can't stay on topic, huh?  Mental lightweight.  I doubt you can pass the Private Pilot written.

 
Stay there. Too may Yankees here already.
 
I'll sit here by the pool while you stand on a slushy street corner and wait on your bus----driver.

 

[snapthis]

 
Agreed.

 
I agree too. You lost the argument.
 
Retreat!!
 
Now scurry back to your Habitrail.