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OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Of Nic allows me out there based on that list, then I have the right. We merged you idiot and had a new list put together. I'm not the jerkoff trying to prevent its implementation.

One day you'll be dust and ill be on the 350.

More like this: Move2clt passed the recall, Dave ODell passes him up by years in AA merger. Move2clt finally gets recalled from Bojangles 2015. The rest of AA recalled 2014. Dave ODell is now 777 Capt, living in San Diego. ODell looks over to the right on a OE trip for Move2Clt 2015. "Gear UP!" Move2clt's greasy chicken laden hands slip off handle, Dave O Dell calmly reaches over, raises gear.
 
Of Nic allows me out there based on that list, then I have the right. We merged you idiot and had a new list put together. I'm not the jerkoff trying to prevent its implementation.

One day you'll be dust and ill be on the 350.

Of =If, yes you are a jerkoff. Back to your room scab.
 
That is HILARIOUS, 'THE CLUES PART" YOUR AN awa EMPLOY WITH AN american furloughed seniority number hedgeing your leepfrog game! No clues needed! MM!
You see AAviator. The east mind simply can not conceive the possibility that the entire industry does not agreed with them that DOH is the gold standard. That when you give your word and make an agreement that it is OK to break that agreement because you don't like the result.

So what an east pilots does is create a fantasy that you can't work for another airline so you must be junior, furloughed and used to work for AWA. That for all of their blabbering about how many years they have been standing in line. They still after all of these years don't understand the difference between seniority and longevity.
 
Should anyone need a really good laugh even beyond that; just ask any of these little punks when they were hired, and watch the tap dancing and evasive squirming that immediately follows. 😉

If anyone wants a good laugh ask an East pilot how much he makes and how much vacation he gets.
 
From the CLT stooges:

As a result of Judge Silver ruling on USAPA’s behalf, the union, through President Hummel and our attorneys have reached out to both the West Class attorneys and the PHX Domicile Chairman seeking their willingness to sit down and have good-faith discussions with the union on USAPA’s seniority proposal.


If you morons have a legitimate union purpose AND are free to negotiate, then why o why do you need to reach out? Why?

Because the company isn't going to touch your list.

Bunch of f'ing idiots.
 
Here is the entire update:

October 29, 2012


CLT Domicile Update
Fellow CLT Pilots,

During the course of litigation surrounding the issue of seniority, we have generally avoided commenting about the positions and public statements of certain groups intending to advance the Nicolau award. However, in light of some recent misleading statements by these groups and the Company, we thought it appropriate to highlight some significant points in Judge Silver's "Order" and "Judgment" to quell any doubt as to whether USAPA prevailed in the District Court in Phoenix.

If you are interested in reading the Order and/or Judgment issued by Judge Silver in their entirety, you can do so by clicking the links or in the Legal Library. For your convenience, we have reduced the documents to the following bullet points that should help dispel any rumors you may hear that USAPA did not prevail or that the Company did not receive clear direction as to its obligations and rights with regard to USAPA's seniority proposal.

Found in the Judgment and Order are the following points:

"USAPA's seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose."
"USAPA is free to pursue any seniority position it wishes during the collective bargaining negotiations."
US Airways "must negotiate with USAPA and it need not insist on any particular seniority regime."
"It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any time by written agreement of USAPA and US Airways."
"There is no obvious impediment to USAPA and US Airways negotiating and agreeing upon any seniority regime they wish."
"Seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement…."
"It is unlikely the West Pilots could successfully allege claims against US Airways merely for not insisting that USAPA continue to advocate for the Nicolau Award."
USAPA's Motion for Summary Judgment was GRANTED.
The West Pilots' Motion for Summary Judgment was DENIED.
After reading the above bullet points from Judge Silver, it is difficult to comprehend how some are still claiming USAPA did not prevail, and thus must use the Nicolau award or that the Company still needs more direction. Please don't be fooled. USAPA prevailed in PHX; the Company is not only free to negotiate but Judge Silver found that they "must" negotiate on the matter of seniority, and "need not insist on any particular seniority list". The language is unambiguous.

Also being perpetuated by some is the myth that in her decision, Judge Silver expressed she disagreed with the 9th Circuit's ruling in the Addington appeal and if it weren't for the upper court "getting it wrong", her decision would have bound USAPA to the Nicolau. There is no such expression by Judge Silver. Her only references to the 9th is in her acknowledgment that it ruled the earlier claim brought against USAPA was not ripe; and a case precedent where the 9th Circuit gave its opinion that seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement. She gave no indication whether she agreed with the 9th or not.

What she did, was use strong language to remind USAPA that if it is intent on pursuing a seniority list other than the Nicolau, it must not breach its duty of fair representation, or a viable claim against it may be brought. These are valid reminders to USAPA, but not anything USAPA hasn't been aware of from the beginning.

Here are her reminders:

With that freedom comes risk, because the West Pilot Defendants may have viable legal claims in the future should the collective bargaining agreement contain a seniority provision harmful to a subsection of the union.
US Airways must evaluate any proposal by USAPA with some care to ensure that it is reasonable and supported by a legitimate union purpose.
By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized.
Again, these are valid reminders but they are not new to USAPA and not something Judge Silver came up with out of the blue; USAPA has always been aware of its obligations as memorialized in the Railway Labor Act (RLA) and case-precedent, and is certainly aware that legal action has always been a possibility by any union member. But remember, the West Class does not have a monopoly on this right nor does the RLA only apply to one segment of a union's membership. USAPA is bound under the duty of fair representation and must apply it to all pilots, or possibly face a legitimate claim. And, when there is a ratified collective agreement and a duty of fair representation claim is filed, the usual DFR standard will apply, and the plaintiff or plaintiffs will be required to show that the seniority provision in the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA), whatever it may be, is "so far outside a 'wide range of reasonableness' that it is wholly 'irrational' or 'arbitrary'." Air Line Pilots Ass'n v. O'Neill, 499 U.S. 65, 78 (1991).

Another myth being circulated is that USAPA does not have a legitimate union purpose for pursuing something other than the Nicolau award. Common sense would dictate that Judge Silver obviously believes there are legitimate union purposes for setting aside the Nicolau Award. If she didn't, she certainly wouldn't have decided that USAPA had the right to propose something else, and that the Company was obligated to negotiate about something else. She would have simply dismissed USAPA's claim and granted the West Class' motion for summary judgment. But that's not what happened. She did just the opposite.

There is no question that USAPA has a legitimate union purpose –in fact many good reasons – for a seniority proposal different from the Nicolau award. USAPA's lawyers explained through the papers filed with the Court, why USAPA is justified in proposing something other than the Nicolau Award. Here are the main points:

USAPA has a duty to fairly represent not only former America West Pilots, but all US Airways pilots.
It is legitimate to integrate seniority based on date of hire.
It is legitimate to respect pre-merger career expectations.
It is legitimate to take into account changed circumstances including the relative economic strength and viability of America West flying VS US Airways flying.
USAPA is not required to follow the ALPA Merger Policy in effect at the time of the Nicolau Award, which eliminated length of service as a relevant consideration, but is entitled to pursue a "fair and equitable" integration.
It is legitimate to place a pilot with 25 years of seniority above a pilot with 9 years, or a pilot with 15-16 years seniority above a pilot still in ground school.
Each of the other crafts on the property integrated seniority based on date of hire, and no case-precedent holds that DOH integration violates the duty of fair representation.
This is certainly not meant to be a comprehensive list. There were more reasons listed in the papers filed with the Court, and considering that any future legal claim will be weighed against the circumstances at the time the claim is filed, there may be other reasons supporting something other than the Nicolau award.

This update should help clarify where we are, where we are going, and perhaps more importantly dispel some of the inaccuracies being perpetuated lately. USAPA prevailed, the West Class's motion was dismissed and the Company was told it must negotiate with USAPA about seniority.

As a result of Judge Silver ruling on USAPA's behalf, the union, through President Hummel and our attorneys have reached out to both the West Class attorneys and the PHX Domicile Chairman seeking their willingness to sit down and have good-faith discussions with the union on USAPA's seniority proposal. To date, the union has been rather harshly rebuffed by both parties and informed that it is "NIC or nothing". Nevertheless, we will proceed with the best interest of all pilots in mind and with every intention of living up to our responsibilities as per the RLA while negotiating all sections of our next CBA including Section 22, seniority.


Captain Bill McKee                         Chairman                 (980) 875-7644

First Officer Steve Crimi                 Vice Chairman         (980) 875-7645

First Officer Dewitt Ingram             Vice Chairman         (704) 497-7246
 
Move said: "Because the company isn't going to touch your list."

Agreed. Their only involvement going forward (and with the hope of a big personal payday for success) will be to shove all their intergration problems off on M/B. Two lists to M/B.

Have you paid attention to what is going on with our mechanics? Seems Teamsters believe in DOH. IAM....not so much.

Greeter
 
Let's see McKee's jaw drop when the seniority portion of the ratified contract is blocked by a court, after USAPA had a DOH firesale in every other area just to get it.

But you folks worship that imbecile.
 
You said that all a furloughed pilot's time in service, possibly a decade or more, has no value when compared to a newhire pilot with 3 months on the property. That's just wrong.
It's unfortunate that such a pilot had to pay the price for poor labor leadership and end up furloughed in the first place (Full Pay to the Last Day and all that rah rah), but perpetuating that wrong on the back of a west pilot doesn't make it right.
 
Wading through another rambling update from CLT. Have they ever put out an update less than 4 pages?

But if CLT is correct and the judge said it is OK. That means there are no more excuses for usapa to hide behind why we don't have a contract. usapa and CLT have declared victory.

Can we now expect a contract in that long ago promised 90 days?

This update should help clarify where we are, where we are going, and perhaps more importantly dispel some of the inaccuracies being perpetuated lately. USAPA prevailed, the West Class's motion was dismissed and the Company was told it must negotiate with USAPA about seniority.

There you have it. No excuses, no one to blame for not getting a contract. No need to beg the west to play in any reindeer games. Go show the west how the big boys do it. How the professional east pilots use your leverage to get everything you want.

They left out one small item. usapa must have a LUP in order to negotiate something other than the Nicolau.

It is legitimate to integrate seniority based on date of hire.
Right up to the time an arbitrator says no.

It is legitimate to respect pre-merger career expectations.
Yes it is and un merged expectation was to be liquidated and start at the bottom of another airline list. Keep that in mind.

It is legitimate to take into account changed circumstances including the relative economic strength and viability of America West flying VS US Airways flying.
No it is not as it contradicts the un merged expectations. So if Parker were to move all of the new flying and aircraft to the APA and leave the east on min fleet and block hour the APA can use that in the seniority arbitration and offset that they have 1700 furloughs and are in BK?

USAPA is not required to follow the ALPA Merger Policy in effect at the time of the Nicolau Award, which eliminated length of service as a relevant consideration, but is entitled to pursue a "fair and equitable" integration.
Better go back and read the judges order again. Judge Silver said that usapa inherited the T/A and the merger policy. The change to that policy was made in 1992.13 year prior to our merger. Not like the most experienced pilots in the country did not know what the policy was. A court may not be very receptive to the argument "but we did not know".

"Thus, just as ALPA would have been bound by the Transition Agreement had it remained the pilots’ representative, USAPA is bound by the Transition Agreement"( judge Silver)


It is legitimate to place a pilot with 25 years of seniority above a pilot with 9 years, or a pilot with 15-16 years seniority above a pilot still in ground school.
Again flies in the face of judge Silvers comment

"By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground."

What usapa would have to argue in front of a judge is that a well respected arbitrator created an illegitimate list. This would be after judge Silver said an impartial arbitrator decision is powerful evidence of a fair or legitimate list. The east made this argument to the arbitrator and he rejected it. Why would a court accept it as a LUP now? A list that would advantage each and every east pilot while disadvantaging every single west pilot.

But good luck we are all waiting for this new wonderful contract usapa is going to get us because they have no more road blocks according to CLT.
 
Parker was pretty clear the Company isn't going along with USAPAs trumped up LUO. In fact he said they were right where they were before...2.5 years ago. The NMB isn't touching mediated negotiations when there is ongoing litigation...which there will be when the Company appeals in 10 days.

Congrats USAPA! Two more years of LOA93 unless APA comes thru...then it's a raise and the Nic award.
 
Amazing how the stooges cherry pick to keep their constituents chasing the carrot.

No explanation on this:

"By discarding theresult of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground."
 
It's unfortunate that such a pilot had to pay the price for poor labor leadership and end up furloughed in the first place (Full Pay to the Last Day and all that rah rah), but perpetuating that wrong on the back of a west pilot doesn't make it right.

It's more unfortunate that the West pilot group is made up mostly of management drum beaters like yourself. Management put us in this position. The unions made mistakes to be sure, but how empty do our pockets have to be to satisfy the management when theirs are overflowing?

Driver...
 
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