OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fifidriver]

How could the west stop "pursuing the Nic"? Who represents the west and who could initiate, negotiate, or settle upon a different path that would ensure that USAPA and the Company would be free from any legal action from not retaining the NIC for any JCBA contract talks? If 1 or 1,000 west pilots "agreed" in whatever form you or USAPA might like to abandon the NIC, there would be no change in legal liability for USAPA or Management. Thus the Company has two choices, appealing to the 9th notwithstanding: 1) negotiate with USAPA and risk a substantial collusion liability from one or more west pilots (or east for that matter) in a future lawsuit or 2) refuse USAPA's request to insert a Non-NIC list because they consider the legal risk of doing so to be too great. The west pilots, in whole or in part, cannot take a single action to change these two choices USAPA has forced Management to make.

"Read 'em and weep"... I believe that this is about as accurate an assessment of our current situation as you will find. All bloviation and vitriol aside, how would you advise the West to proceed to "move" off the Nic, assuming they were willing?
Regardless of the result of the merger attempt, I believe that the company will absolutely appeal the DJ, and at the last possible date, in order to prolong their unbelievable labor cost advantage as long as they possibly can. They will ride this broken down thing just as far as it will go. Parker must literally come into the office every day and ask Kirby to pinch him, just to make sure he is not dreaming. He doesn't have to do a thing as far as running an airline, except to watch the money roll in, (our money), and find new ways to keep the status quo.

 

[Keroseneuser]

It simply fixes a technicality the Judge never intended. The company is going to appeal.

yeah I figure the company will appeal, I.E. kick the can down the road. they don't expect any other answer than they already have from 2 courts now.

However the "technicality" as you said seems to indicate they want to make sure they only have to defend against one DFR suit. That plus Dougs reaction and answers to questions in the town hall indicate to me they have decided to press on and just defend a DFR when it comes up. Hopefully in 2 to 5 more years, which by then they hope the AA deal is done and the point is moot.

 

[Phoenix]

The question is quite clear - Can you produce any evidence that the east would negotiate away from a DOH award in order to placate the minority west?

Perhaps you misplaced your English-Windbag dictionary. Understandable.

Many posters have repeatedly said that Hummel, Cleary, or other representatives have approached the West to discuss possible solutions. And many West posters have boasted that the West WILL NOT talk. The West position that they will not engage in talks because they don't trust there is a possibility to get what they want from such talks, is far different than saying no talks were ever offered.

Looks like another "ripeness" issue. Refusing to talk and find out what can be solved, and jumping to the conclusion that the talks will result in harm. You all should be very familiar with the concept of "ripeness".

 

[fifidriver]

...Perhaps you misplaced your English-Windbag dictionary...

"Now I don't care who you are..., That's funny!!!"

Larry the Cable Guy

 

[Metroyet]

No, you did it to yourselves trying to push the Nic. There is a middle ground somewhere, that now will never be found.

The Nic. IS THE MIDDLE GROUND. In fact, it's "strong evidence of a fair process" I believe the latest Federal Judge stated. Expect the NMB to ignore Hummel. Expect the appeal. Expect LOA93 for at least two more years. If a merger, expect to be slotted with APA via the Nic. award.

 

[Metroyet]

Many posters have repeatedly said that Hummel, Cleary, or other representatives have approached the West to discuss possible solutions. And many West posters have boasted that the West WILL NOT talk. The West position that they will not engage in talks because they don't trust there is a possibility to get what they want from such talks, is far different than saying no talks were ever offered.

Looks like another "ripeness" issue. Refusing to talk and find out what can be solved, and jumping to the conclusion that the talks will result in harm. You all should be very familiar with the concept of "ripeness".

Disingenious offerings put forth to individuals with no rights or authority to agree to modify anything hardly count for much.

 

[Keroseneuser]

The Nic. IS THE MIDDLE GROUND. In fact, it's "strong evidence of a fair process" I believe the latest Federal Judge stated. Expect the NMB to ignore Hummel. Expect the appeal. Expect LOA93 for at least two more years. If a merger, expect to be slotted with APA via the Nic. award.

I think that is where the west is missing the point big time. Over and over they toss out the "LOA 93 for 2 more years" By far and wide margins from what i see on the line the east prefers LOA 93 and its attrition over anything with NIC in it. Its been going on for 7 years and in several union elections it is clear that they do not want anything to do with NIC.

I am positive USAPA and the east would like to come up with a middle ground with the west, that I can see on the line everyday also. but the LOA 93 threat means nothing to the east if its that or the nic. 7 years clearly shows the NIC is worse for them.

Have you watched the crew news yet? If I were a west pilot and could put away the emotions for the 45 mins or so it takes to watch it I would have only one thing to say "Oh Sh%t the company is content to watch the west wither up and go poof in the desert wind"

 

[EastUS1]

"Oh Sh%t the company is content to watch the west wither up and go poof in the desert wind"

That does indeed appear to be the case....but will in no way quiet down any west fantasies about how the east is trying to "steal" their jobs.

 

[EastUS1]

The Nic. IS THE MIDDLE GROUND.

Yes, yes indeed...and "there's no place like home" and "all is well". 😉

 

[EastUS1]

They will ride this broken down thing just as far as it will go. Parker must literally come into the office every day and ask Kirby to pinch him, just to make sure he is not dreaming. He doesn't have to do a thing as far as running an airline, except to watch the money roll in, (our money), and find new ways to keep the status quo.

Pretty much. Whatever one's notions of nic being a lopsided windfall...it surely has been for management!

 

[CallawayGolf]

I think that is where the west is missing the point big time. Over and over they toss out the "LOA 93 for 2 more years" By far and wide margins from what i see on the line the east prefers LOA 93 and its attrition over anything with NIC in it. Its been going on for 7 years and in several union elections it is clear that they do not want anything to do with NIC.

I am positive USAPA and the east would like to come up with a middle ground with the west, that I can see on the line everyday also. but the LOA 93 threat means nothing to the east if its that or the nic. 7 years clearly shows the NIC is worse for them.

Have you watched the crew news yet? If I were a west pilot and could put away the emotions for the 45 mins or so it takes to watch it I would have only one thing to say "Oh Sh%t the company is content to watch the west wither up and go poof in the desert wind"

I would agree that that the east prefers LOA93 to a JCBA with the NIC, or so their collective actions or complacency would suggest. Having said that what was the rationale behind the yellow lanyard and pink panties campaign that got USAPA a federal injunction and parked by the NMB? If the east are so very happy then why the illegal job action?

And even if what you say about the Company being content to let PHX shrink and die, there still isn't a single thing the west legally do to change the situation. The east pilots via USAPA are in the driver's seat. There's a DFR cliff on one side and and APA big rig barreling towards them. If the merger with AA doesn't happen and the big rig doesn't crush USAPA in the process, then the east pilots can just ride along on LOA93 until the last day of their careers. The only bona fide and guaranteed bailout off that path comes via the NIC.

 

[Phoenix]

"Poof in the desert wind" ...

"They clung fiercely to the Nic until they went poof in the desert wind"

A fitting epitaph.

 

[Move2CLT]

I really don't see that happening. Not after what Parker said. All the risk is surely coming home to PHX,

Like I said...

 

[cleardirect]

The fact the West pilots continue to fall back on the argument that there is no one to represent them is an easy out. They have no problem suing with Leonidas, and hiring lawyers, meeting, organizing, producing videos, mailers etc. They have a well organized mechanism of organization to pursue what they want, and then fall back on what you just said. At this point, nobody cares anymore if they don't organize to work something out. That train is leaving the station as I see it. Let the chips fall where they soon will. Cannot help those who do not try themselves.

Except Leonidas has a charter. A set of rules to operate by. Those rules say that Leonidas will protect the Nicolau. We know that you east guys have trouble following your own rules but the west does not.

No negotiating.

What is you guys say? It is in our C&BL.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I would agree that that the east prefers LOA93 to a JCBA with the NIC, or so their collective actions or complacency would suggest. Having said that what was the rationale behind the yellow lanyard and pink panties campaign that got USAPA a federal injunction and parked by the NMB? If the east are so very happy then why the illegal job action?

I know you are not going to acknowledge this but we really did have a maint. problem on the east when that started. I don't know why but MEL's were rampant and not just annoying stuff. engine issues, flight control issues, major electrical system issues etc.

USAPA screwed the pooch there, in my opinion they took something that the line pilots were trying to get the company to fix and turned it in to a circus. However for what its worth the company got the message and I don't see many mels now just the normal stuff one would expect.

Where the problem came in was when guys started writing up o2 bottles low at out stations etc. It let the company in my opinion deflect from the true problem we had going on then and let them blame the pilots, while they quietly fixed the real parts supply issue or whatever it was.

In fact i was very interested in what the west called "normal" maint. during that period since we should have been on the same maint plan at the time. Since what we were seeing over here was worse than I had ever seen at a 121 carrier. For about 4 months it made me think I was back working at the bandaid and duct tape 135 outfit again. I started recording every mel item for the airplanes I was assigned in my log book just so I could remember what all the affected systems were in the event i had a CP or FAA meeting.

For me personally that period in time was "Fix the friggin airplanes" however some in USAPA had other ideas I guess.