OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Keroseneuser]

What's the difference between primary and secondary?

Primary line are like any line at any airline. Secondarys are built from 2 main components, the left over trips that were not included into the primarys and the trips that are dropped by primary line holders in the SAP period that were not picked up by another primary line holder. Also any trips that are dropped due to vacation overlap etc. Don't know how the west is on that, but when bidding if a trip in the line you bid touches your vacation it gets dropped. I.E day 4 of a trip touches day 1 of your vacation the whole 4 day trip is dropped off your line.

Closest thing to it at other carriers I have seen in the past would be what they called a "Build line"

the SAP period lets you improve your line from what you bid. examples would be if i bid something but it didn't have a day my kid was playing a ballgame, i could go in during the sap period and drop the trip and pick up another or within minimum time contraints just drop it. Still have to maintain a minimum monthy time but you can sap down about 10 to 20 hours depending on the month and not be obligated to pick up a trip in its place.

 

[luvn737s]

Basically he told the west to have at it with the lawsuits etc, but that he was moving on with hiring on the east so the west knows what they can expect for the duration of this process. What really would worry me if I were on the west was when they questioned the "rumors" that the new hires were being told they would probably upgrade in 5 to 7 years. To cut to the chase the answer was "yes" and in the explanation not once was the word PHX or west pilots used. there was lots of detail about the east retirement numbers, plus the new rest requirements coming up etc. That one item by itself tells me the company is done with the games and that the west has been put in hibernation for how ever long they wish to pursue the venture.

Did he tell you he was going to reject the Nicolau list?

Did he say that an agreement for a DOH list with USAPA that included sufficient increases in rates and rules to pass ("Phoenix" almost had a hernia trying to block even the rumor of the MOU) was on the table?

Did he tell you that he was not going to appeal Judge Silver's decision?

Did he tell you that he would petition the NMB to un-park negotiations?

What exactly did he tell you that leads you to believe that anything on his side has changed?

 

[EastUS1]

Did he tell you.....?

Did he say that ...?

Did he tell you.....?

Did he tell you.....?

What exactly did he tell you.......?

Well...pretty much that PHX was overstaffed and going nowhere, which circumstance, if limited only to such creatures as yourself and most of your fellow posters, (Bean notably excepted here) would be proper cause for believing in karma, but sadly effects a lot of decent people out there as well.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Did he tell you he was going to reject the Nicolau list?

Did he say that an agreement for a DOH list with USAPA that included sufficient increases in rates and rules to pass ("Phoenix" almost had a hernia trying to block even the rumor of the MOU) was on the table?

Did he tell you that he was not going to appeal Judge Silver's decision?

Did he tell you that he would petition the NMB to un-park negotiations?

What exactly did he tell you that leads you to believe that anything on his side has changed?

1. No, and he would not say the NIC list was it even while being badgered by the west guy. Also said when pressed by the guy that "there are differeing legal opinions and your opinion is not necessarly correct" (paraphrased, and said while the guy was nearly blowing spittle on him.
2. No he said that USAPA was the barganing agent and that they would bring whatever list it was. (paraphrased but that is the jist of it.)
3. No he said they were looking at all posibilities and there had been no decision (I expect them to, simply to keep the status quo for another couple years)
4. Don't recall any comment from him on the "parking" subject. It came up from the upset west guy but he ignored it from what I remember.

5. The no bones about it apprach to west stagnation and east movement without sugarcoating it one bit.

 

[AAviator]

Then stop trying to steal something you never earned, and it ends.

Who is trying to steal what? A judge ruled. period.

Now you are trying to steal, actually by virtue of your behavior, you are stealing what isn't legally yours.

Correct?

 

[prechilill]

Primary line are like any line at any airline. Secondarys are built from 2 main components, the left over trips that were not included into the primarys and the trips that are dropped by primary line holders in the SAP period that were not picked up by another primary line holder. Also any trips that are dropped due to vacation overlap etc. Don't know how the west is on that, but when bidding if a trip in the line you bid touches your vacation it gets dropped. I.E day 4 of a trip touches day 1 of your vacation the whole 4 day trip is dropped off your line.

Closest thing to it at other carriers I have seen in the past would be what they called a "Build line"

the SAP period lets you improve your line from what you bid. examples would be if i bid something but it didn't have a day my kid was playing a ballgame, i could go in during the sap period and drop the trip and pick up another or within minimum time contraints just drop it. Still have to maintain a minimum monthy time but you can sap down about 10 to 20 hours depending on the month and not be obligated to pick up a trip in its place.

That sounds like a good system, far better than the system on the west. PBS can be good, it's just our version sucks because our version was basically negotiated by a group that likes to "get along" with management at every turn and so our product gives everything benefits-wise to management. Plus, and here is where I asked clarification from you, our lines are not finalized until the 19th of the month prior. Our November lines didn't come out until 18 October. Same airline, same flights shared between domiciles but over a month apart in bid award. Three domiciles have bids awarded one month ahead of the fourth. Anybody see something wrong with this situation? I hear second hand PBS at TWA was awesome because of the features they had negotiated into it.

 

[Keroseneuser]

That sounds like a good system, far better than the system on the west. PBS can be good, it's just our version sucks because our version was basically negotiated by a group that likes to "get along" with management at every turn and so our product gives everything benefits-wise to management. Plus, and here is where I asked clarification from you, our lines are not finalized until the 19th of the month prior. Our November lines didn't come out until 18 October. Same airline, same flights shared between domiciles but over a month apart in bid award. Three domiciles have bids awarded one month ahead of the fourth. Anybody see something wrong with this situation? I hear second hand PBS at TWA was awesome because of the features they had negotiated into it.

yeah could see where not getting your schedule till the 18th the month prior can be a pain. The latest that anybody gets their schedule on the east is the 16th or 17th the month prior and that is reserves. reserve lines open the 10th and close the 15th normally.

I am sure PBS is going to be one of the huge things tempe pushes for in any joint contract. One thing i had never seen posted was the fact that nobody on the west got schedules till the 18th the month prior. That is not going to go over well on the east. as you can see from the earlier post folks on the east are already planning their x-mas stuff now that they have their december schedules.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I have done these numbers before. The "huge" movement you think you were getting is not what you think it is.

First off 25% of the retirements do not hold a bidding position.

Second Nicolau gave you 2/3 of all movement (66.6%)


So what you want is DOH, ALL the attrition and 90% of the contract. Does not leave much for the west pilots does it?

Well good for, doing the numbers, I should give you comfort during every "EAST " system bid moving into the coming years, So I guess that proves no real harm to the "WEST" since during the seperate ops you will actually capture your own attrition , "the numbers" don't lie!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Nope. YOU were ALPA, even had your own VP.

Try again

ALPA is ALPA, Our own VP? Now were USAPA Funny! I believe at one time ALPA had a president that had no AIRLINE! NOPE that was ALPA!

 

[luvn737s]

Primary line are like any line at any airline. Secondarys are built from 2 main components, the left over trips that were not included into the primarys and the trips that are dropped by primary line holders in the SAP period that were not picked up by another primary line holder.

We had Regular Lines, Relief Lines, Training Relief Lines and Reserve before PBS. With PBS, there is no need to have a secondary run, because you can go in anytime and drop/pickup with open time or someone else or split a trip all in real time without Scheduling involvement.

The problem isn't with PBS, it's the contract behind it. PBS could run 2 months out if that was in the contract. Most folks like it, but it does only give you what your seniority can hold (with a couple small exceptions for legalities among the bidders).

 

[luvn737s]

The no bones about it apprach to west stagnation and east movement without sugarcoating it one bit.

So is that how USAPA is going to sell DOH to the west, "Being stapled without the protections in the TA is better than stagnating under fleet mins and block hr restrictions"?

Think about the issues. There is absolutely no reason for the west to negotiate with Integration Hijackers. Especially unarmed ones (unless you agree that EastUS incessant yammering is a not-so-much-lethal-as-pitiful weapon).

What has not been addressed is how to compel the east to produce a contract for a vote. A representation election seems to be the only recourse and every measly paycheck you guys recieve should motivate such a drive.

Has the recall petition made it's way east yet?

 

[Move2CLT]

Dream on kid. I'm not complaining about any supposedly "miserable career" since it's been a fine run for the most part and is nearly done in any case. Were such dark magic even possible; I can promise you that under NO circumstances would I ever trade mine for yours, past, present or future....period.

The entire PHX operation could blow away in the next sand storm and I wouldn't lose anything I want ANY part of. Spare me your strange fantasies to the contrary.

On the other hand: You tag yourself as Move2CLT. What's that say about your wishes to salvage your pitiful "career" off the backs of others? 😉

Of Nic allows me out there based on that list, then I have the right. We merged you idiot and had a new list put together. I'm not the jerkoff trying to prevent its implementation.

One day you'll be dust and ill be on the 350.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Absolutely...

Looking at the seniority list provided via "BINDING ARBITRATION", have any former easties upgraded who are junior to former westies since the list came out?

You can only use former in the same sentence as ratified joint contract.

Till then the word would be separate

 

[Keroseneuser]

So is that how USAPA is going to sell DOH to the west, "Being stapled without the protections in the TA is better than stagnating under fleet mins and block hr restrictions"?

Think about the issues. There is absolutely no reason for the west to negotiate with Integration Hijackers. Especially unarmed ones (unless you agree that EastUS incessant yammering is a not-so-much-lethal-as-pitiful weapon).

What has not been addressed is how to compel the east to produce a contract for a vote. A representation election seems to be the only recourse and every measly paycheck you guys recieve should motivate such a drive.

Has the recall petition made it's way east yet?

There is an attempt at getting a recall on the clt reps. But it has been going on for a couple months now so don't think it is getting much traction. (Seems to enforce what I was saying that anything that even appears to maybe be a NIC possible item gets no support) A couple folks that are associated with the recall are considered by many to be outsiders in their own pilot group.

No idea what the USAPA proposal is going to be but i am sure it's not going to be NIC. The east in general i don't think is opposed to some slotting of the current lists, but since USAPA has DOH in its constitution it will probably be DOH with heavy protections for the west folks or some kind of LOS thing. Just my opinion.

Hoping that you can use the constant tossing of loa 93 in the boards and get the east to change its mind is a waste of time for you. They finally have movement on the east after 20 years of stagnation due to hiring cycles, 9/11 downsize, and age 65 change. When as was pointed out the Junior Capt on the 330 hired in 1981 would have 37 west guys above him under NIC, when AWA didn't even come into being until 1983, and it gets worse as the list goes down pretty much puts the nail in the NIC coffin as far as ever getting a vote to pass it.

So feel free to toss "You can rot on LOA 93" out there all you want. Everybody on the east would love to get off LOA 93, but not if it means a NIC. When NIC put guys ahead of people that were hired before AWA even existed and then ran that ratio all the way down it ensured that you can never get a yes vote from the east.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Absolutely...

Looking at the seniority list provided via "BINDING ARBITRATION", have any former easties upgraded who are junior to former westies since the list came out?

There, threw some clues in there for ya!

That is HILARIOUS, 'THE CLUES PART" YOUR AN awa EMPLOY WITH AN american furloughed seniority number hedgeing your leepfrog game! No clues needed! MM!