OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Not really. I just want some semblance of sanity and fairness in what we have. I have seen juries do many things. A few years ago, one in New York awarded a woman $1 million bucks for the loss of psychic powers after a CT Scan, so don't put all your eggs in that basket. I'm sure another kangaroo court like the one Judge Wake presided over will have the same result...overturned on appeal.

Let's have a trial where the NIC has to undergo the smell check, not barred from testimony. Then we will see what is what.

Driver...

You can wish for that all day long. Ask Santa to bring you ANOTHER trial to check the fairness of the Nicolau.

Nicolau created the list. The executive counsel looked at the list and said it was fine. The jury saw usapa's arguments and disregarded them. The ninth did not look at the merits. Judge Silver said that an arbitration is a demonstration of a fair result.

So you are not going to get anyone else to "check for a smell test" it passed that test many times. Just not in your opinion.

Now what if. What if we did have a trial and the jury said that the list was fair. What then? Another trial? More accusation of biased judges?

 

[A320 Driver]

In order to get the support of the new hires I would suggest placing the new hires senior to the old east pilots.

NIC already did that.

What go around comes around.

Yes, it certainly does.

Driver...

 

[cleardirect]

Absolutely agree! DOH should have never been messed with PERIOD. It should have remained an undisputed issue, across the board, for all mergers, at all airlines.

Negotiated fences, yes. 5-7 years worth of normal attrition (now that age 65 is no longer an issue) would take care of any "windfall" concerns, after which the march of time would treat everyone equally.

This whole notion about creating first, second and third class groups of pilots in a merger, based on type of equipment flown, status and the ever "popular" notions of "career expectations" and "fairness", has been used by countless airline managements to pit pilots against themselves to our everlasting detriment.

Close your eyes if you will and picture an airline industry where DOH is a given, a law of nature if you will, something that always has been and always will be a fact, like say, gravity. Before you ever get hired by any airline it is a given that DOH is the way it is.

Now ask yourself, what would the industry be like today if airline managements had never had the ability to set us at each others throats, across the industry. Hard to say for sure, but I think we could reasonably expect that lawyers would have less money and pilots would have more. Not that it's all about money, real pilot unity would be the norm, teamwork, solidarity and a genuine spirit of cooperation and mutual support would become pervasive throughout the profession. There would be healthy rivalries between individual airlines but the fate of each would be mostly dependent on the efforts of the team, think Southwest.

Would this DOH world treat everyone equally, I think it would and it would sure make things a whole lot simpler.


seajay

Well you should have started a campaign for a national seniority list when you first got hired. Crying about it now does not good. You have been in the business a long time. What did you do to fix what you consider a problem?

 

[cleardirect]

NIC already did that.

Yes, it certainly does.

Driver...

No Nicolau placed active pilots senior to furloughed pilots.

If we have to correct the seniority list it will be anyone hired after 2005 will be senior to east pilots still left on the original east list. Pay back is a ####. These guy wishing for attrition only cuts down on you majority.

 

[EastUS1]

Absolutely agree! DOH should have never been messed with PERIOD. It should have remained an undisputed issue, across the board, for all mergers, at all airlines.

Negotiated fences, yes. 5-7 years worth of normal attrition (now that age 65 is no longer an issue) would take care of any "windfall" concerns, after which the march of time would treat everyone equally.

This whole notion about creating first, second and third class groups of pilots in a merger, based on type of equipment flown, status and the ever "popular" notions of "career expectations" and "fairness", has been used by countless airline managements to pit pilots against themselves to our everlasting detriment.

Close your eyes if you will and picture an airline industry where DOH is a given, a law of nature if you will, something that always has been and always will be a fact, like say, gravity. Before you ever get hired by any airline it is a given that DOH is the way it is.

Now ask yourself, what would the industry be like today if airline managements had never had the ability to set us at each others throats, across the industry. Hard to say for sure, but I think we could reasonably expect that lawyers would have less money and pilots would have more. Not that it's all about money, real pilot unity would be the norm, teamwork, solidarity and a genuine spirit of cooperation and mutual support would become pervasive throughout the profession. There would be healthy rivalries between individual airlines but the fate of each would be mostly dependent on the efforts of the team, think Southwest.

Would this DOH world treat everyone equally, I think it would and it would sure make things a whole lot simpler.


seajay

"Absolutely agree! DOH should have never been messed with PERIOD. It should have remained an undisputed issue, across the board, for all mergers, at all airlines."

Perfectly put sir. We see the results of doing otherwise every day here. The management of AWA/"US" alone couldn't have possibly gotten a better gift than the nic insanity.

 

[A320 Driver]

No Nicolau placed active pilots senior to furloughed pilots.

If we have to correct the seniority list it will be anyone hired after 2005 will be senior to east pilots still left on the original east list. Pay back is a ####. These guy wishing for attrition only cuts down on you majority.

LOL!!! That what you want for Christmas???

You are a riot! 🙂

Driver...

 

[EastUS1]

You have been in the business a long time. What did you do to fix what you consider a problem?

We finally got rid of a chronic, parasitical infestation = alpa. What have you ever done to try and improve anything?

 

[EastUS1]

If we don't get the Nicolau we will correct that error. What go around comes around.

Get right on that. Let us all know how/if/when so much as even one of your strange little fantasies ever does play out in reality.

"If we don't get the Nicolau..." I'm pleased to see that some small degree of awareness is blossoming here. Not long ago; I'd have imagined it entirely unthinkable for any of you to even admit that you just "might" not get your nic. Not so very long ago...you fine folks were posting that the nic was going to be "rammed down our throats". My oh my, how times do change.

 

[Zone5]

I just have a different opinion, that's all. Empire wanted their DOH all the way back to the Navajos. Trump didn't even ASK for their Eastern DOH...not to say they would have gotten it. Moving forward, we are dealing with a current seniority issue, not re-writing the list. If you set that precedent, there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING to stop the West pilots, when they have sufficient numbers, to re-write the list again to suit themselves. While it can be argued that is what USAPA is trying to do, I would argue that efforts have been made to correct what many of us see as a grievous errors made by the arbitrator in NIC II. That is ongoing and the jury is still out.

I don't know what your seniority bracket happens to be, but I'm sure whatever place you find yourself, your suggestion would either improve your position or you are immune to the results of such a re-write. Otherwise, I just can't believe you would intentionally disadvantage yourself for principle.

Driver...

I never said anything about anyone's Eastern DOH the Trump pilots lost their Eastern DOH (some were Trump newhires) when they resigned to go to work for the Donald. As far as Empire Navajo pilots go, are you suggesting that they are somehow "not worthy" because they flew them there in the distant past? Should the former "mainline" America West Dash-8 pilots have been somehow considered second class pilots and permanently disadvantaged on the West list?

Believe it. Fact of the matter is that if I stay till 65, after over 30 years of unbroken service, I will still be 1,500 numbers from the top of the list, the day I came to work for USAir I became "disadvantaged" and I got over it years ago. If the list was "corrected" to a straight DOH and the concept "set in stone", as it always should have been, there would be no need to, or ability to, re-write the list.

Imagine what we as pilots could accomplish if we could devote 100% of our time and effort on a unified and focused contract negotiation with "Team Tempe". The rising tide would indeed lift all boats, even management's, if the end product was a dedicated, well motivated, highly productive pilot team.


seajay

 

[A320 Driver]

I never said anything about anyone's Eastern DOH the Trump pilots lost their Eastern DOH (some were Trump newhires) when they resigned to go to work for the Donald.

If you start talking DOH to the Shuttle pilots, Eastern's list is exactly where they go. When they and the Empire pilots filed suit, their seniority list had a Shuttle guy at #1. Don't think for one minute you will get them to accept Trump DOH. There really isn't any such thing. They did not resign their Eastern seniority numbers. They signed away their right to make claims against the Eastern seniority list. And from the letter I read, it said in future transactions their Eastern DOH should be preserved to the degree possible.

As far as Empire Navajo pilots go, are you suggesting that they are somehow "not worthy" because they flew them there in the distant past?

I am suggesting that if you open up this Pandora's box, you might not be as happy with it's contents once you get a good look at them.

Imagine what we as pilots could accomplish if we could devote 100% of our time and effort on a unified and focused contract negotiation with "Team Tempe". The rising tide would indeed lift all boats, even management's, if the end product was a dedicated, well motivated, highly productive pilot team.

Great pipe dream, but never at THIS airline. That is why I am hoping for a merger with American and ultimately APA representation.

Driver...

 

[Zone5]

Yes, it would be a whole lot simpler, but now that the genie is out of the bottle, how do you put it back in and keep it there.

Not an easy task.

Driver...

Nothing worth accomplishing is ever easy. We start by washing our own dirty laundry by "adjusting" the East seniority list as necessary, to make it a straight DOH list. The East created George Nicolau's mind set by not giving the Trump pilots their DOH and tasking Nicolau to "conjurer up" something else and we all know what road that has us bumping along on.


seajay

 

[Walmartgreeter]

320 just said: "If you start talking DOH to the Shuttle pilots, Eastern's list is exactly where they go. When they and the Empire pilots filed suit, their seniority list had a Shuttle guy at #1. Don't think for one minute you will get them to accept Trump DOH. There really isn't any such thing. They did not resign their Eastern seniority numbers. They signed away their right to make claims against the Eastern seniority list. And from the letter I read, it said in future transactions their Eastern DOH should be preserved to the degree possible."

Almost 20 years ago (pre internet!) there were copies of that resignation rules letter posted in the PIT crewroom. Does anyone actually have a copy they could link here? I don't remember it as you do 320, but have no proof. I remember them simply giving up claim to EAL seniority. Period.

Greeter

 

[A320 Driver]

Nothing worth accomplishing is ever easy. We start by washing our own dirty laundry by "adjusting" the East seniority list as necessary, to make it a straight DOH list. The East created George Nicolau's mind set by not giving the Trump pilots their DOH and tasking Nicolau to "conjurer up" something else and we all know what road that has us bumping along on.


seajay

Dude, you need to go back and read NIC I...seriously! Trump DOH is EXACTLY what this pilot group tried to give Shuttle. And the Shuttle NEVER EVER asked for there Eastern DOH. They were opposed to Shuttle DOH. The slotted list was THEIR IDEA!

Go back and read it. I talked to their negotiator and he told me they got almost everything they asked for.

Come on now...if we are going to debate this, lets do it with NIC I as a source document, OK?

Driver...

 

[Zone5]

320 just said: "If you start talking DOH to the Shuttle pilots, Eastern's list is exactly where they go. When they and the Empire pilots filed suit, their seniority list had a Shuttle guy at #1. Don't think for one minute you will get them to accept Trump DOH. There really isn't any such thing. They did not resign their Eastern seniority numbers. They signed away their right to make claims against the Eastern seniority list. And from the letter I read, it said in future transactions their Eastern DOH should be preserved to the degree possible."

Almost 20 years ago (pre internet!) there were copies of that resignation rules letter posted in the PIT crewroom. Does anyone actually have a copy they could link here? I don't remember it as you do 320, but have no proof. I remember them simply giving up claim to EAL seniority. Period.

Greeter

I remember reading that same letter on the same crew room wall. My recollection is that it was from Eastern addressed to Eastern pilots, advising them that by going to work for "The Donald" they would be resigning from EAL and giving up their EAL DOH.


seajay

 

[A320 Driver]

320 just said: "If you start talking DOH to the Shuttle pilots, Eastern's list is exactly where they go. When they and the Empire pilots filed suit, their seniority list had a Shuttle guy at #1. Don't think for one minute you will get them to accept Trump DOH. There really isn't any such thing. They did not resign their Eastern seniority numbers. They signed away their right to make claims against the Eastern seniority list. And from the letter I read, it said in future transactions their Eastern DOH should be preserved to the degree possible."

Almost 20 years ago (pre internet!) there were copies of that resignation rules letter posted in the PIT crewroom. Does anyone actually have a copy they could link here? I don't remember it as you do 320, but have no proof. I remember them simply giving up claim to EAL seniority. Period.

Greeter

Howdy Greeter!
You are right, it did say that...giving up their claim to the Eastern seniority list, but I don't remember it specifiically stating they gave up their Eastern DOH. In other words, they couldn't pick Shuttle, then come back later and want to be reinstated onto the Eastern seniority list. The statement I mentioned was shown to me a few years back and kind of caught me by surprise.

Driver...