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Are "snapshot" and "zephyr" synonyms? :lol:

Hmmm...well sir...only in the sense that a supposed "snapshot" has about as much lasting and meaningfull validity, and detailed content, as an attempted photograph of a light breeze 😉
 
So Mr. Integrity has a plan. He will sleaze out of his legal obligation to pay as long as he possibly can. Then he'll pay up to save his sorry arse. What a shock.

Can't wait for your next lecture on ethics. :lol:

A USAPA supporter accusing someone else of sleaze. Now that's rich.
 
"PS: It must also be farily noted that, without west participation within the Union....our discussions, however pleasant, are essentially moot herein."

Its real simple....if you want west participation you need to change your c&bl's and give the west fair voting rights for the largest base in the system. Oh, that brings us right back to where we were before...ALPA. If all things all equal then we can begin to negotiate something that works for all of us, and thats not date of hire. Stop telling us to participate until things are equal....that goes for all you east guys....thats the moot point. :huh:

As far as the jumpseat thing goes....would you let a pilot from another airline that had a lawsuit filed agaist your pilots ride on your jumpseat? Stop wasting money and tell your BPR to drop this nonsense. Why would we want to particiapte in this union????????????

PS: Hey machtuck, have you seen elixir around latley??
 
You are so right. Better that we kowtow to management and they will surely reward us with treats. Worked great for Alpo.

What is usapa getting you so far? Watch what they do, not what they say? Looks like that applies to usapa as much as it does the company.

So far getting in the companies face without any unity (other than the east RTBs that is) and leverage doesn't appear to be working any better.

Boy, Doug Parker doesn't want to dive right in and harness the positive energy within usapa? No? Shocking, just shocking. Keep on re writing your playbook-fire, ready, aim.
 
Yep..but not really suprising = "They're evil-USAPA easties!...I don't really know anything at all about the specific situations with any of those 8 guys..BUT: They all must be lying!" :lol: My pick of the litter here = " CloudDancerJul-20 @ 10:27 AM

EastUS, I'm not sure who's qutoing who in your post, but the results are in! Are you talking about the Philly/Fuel 8? Parker flipped out at our ad. It worked in more ways than one. The last two pilots scheduled for "training" had their training cancelled. No, Parker didn't like what his "team" did. Heads are going to roll in his lower management. My guess: Corbisor gets bouced back to the line...excuse me, back to beng a check airman where he can ply his trade.

Capt. Gross was completely accurate,...
I despise our management's lack of leadership and vision only SLIGHTY less than the vermin on the East Coast who are trying to destroy the America West pilot's jobs and have blocked our advancement illegally for over three years now."

Oh, now WE illegally blocked West "advancement" for 3 years? Both MECs shadow-boxed and produced a poorly worded TA after four months of ALPA "using the tools." Both MECs picked a cognitively challenged arbitrator who couldn't even meet for over half a year due to his schedule. THEIR idiot MEC wouldn't take our 757 offer and E-190 offer, which cost them over 60 CA slots and would have stopped 120 furloughs. OUR idiot MEC insisted on DOH in arbitration, only to later offer Wye River, which the West idiots turned down. USAPA has only been on property four months. And somehow WE illegally blocked West advancement for 3 years? All of them out west got to be kidding.

Note the critical and defining "logical" element in establishing the "Truth" about fuel issues here = "and have blocked our advancement illegally for over three years now" Given that west flying's being seriously reduced, and it's always been claimed that "no one is going to commute to take east seats"...One wonders where said "advancement" was going to come from?...whether "legal", supposedly "moral", "fair and equitable" or otherwise?

Enough said methinks.

They are truly amazing, EastUS. Snoop
 
So Mr. Integrity has a plan. He will sleaze out of his legal obligation to pay as long as he possibly can. Then he'll pay up to save his sorry arse. What a shock.

Can't wait for your next lecture on ethics. :lol:

The question is: Is it ethical to support or enable an organization that we see as unethical and immoral? And for the people that support and enable such organizations; are they not just as unethical and immoral? The answer is not difficult to comprehend.
 
The question is: Is it ethical to support or enable an organization that we see as unethical and immoral? And for the people that support and enable such organizations; are they not just as unethical and immoral? The answer is not difficult to comprehend.

"To be, or not to be, that is the Question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the minde to suffer
The Slings and Arrowes of outragious Fortune,
Or to take Armes against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to dye, to sleepe
No more; and by a sleepe, to say we end
The Heart-ake, and the thousand Naturall shockes
That Flesh is heyre too? 'Tis a consummation
Deuoutly to be wish'd. To dye to sleepe,
To sleepe, perchance to Dreame; I, there's the rub,
For in that sleepe of death, what dreames may come,
When we haue shuffel'd off this mortall coile,
Must giue vs pawse. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would beare the Whips and Scornes of time,
The Oppressors wrong, the poore mans Contumely,
The pangs of dispriz'd Loue, the Lawes delay,
The insolence of Office, and the Spurnes
That patient merit of the vnworthy takes,
When he himselfe might his Quietus make
With a bare Bodkin? Who would Fardles beare
To grunt and sweat vnder a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The vndiscouered Countrey, from whose Borne
No Traueller returnes, Puzels the will,
And makes vs rather beare those illes we haue,
Then flye to others that we know not of.
Thus Conscience does make Cowards of vs all,
And thus the Natiue hew of Resolution
Is sicklied o're, with the pale cast of Thought,
And enterprizes of great pith and moment,
With this regard their Currants turne away,
And loose the name of Action. "

Sorry I got carried away. It doesn't matter what your moral views are, pay dues or your fired, simple as that.
â€￾
 
Anyway...ramble over. The bottom line for me personally = I can't see real compromise away from respecting DOH and "Time Served" as being Right...but I'd certainly like to see how best the extended scenario could be massaged, so as to avoid, and/or minimize any wholesale harm to any.

So I've got to ask, in this same vein of mutual civility and briefly ignoring how we got to this present situation, the wounds inflicted or how we change it, what is your take on a dynamic seniority list? One that starts as an immediate reflection of our relative positions at the time of the "snapshot" and is readjusted on a regular basis (annually?) to reflect and benefit the easts greater attrition.


Whatever can be worked out and whatever the future holds for us...It's a genuine pleasure to finally be having some actually civil discussions here.

Agreed.

PS: It must also be farily noted that, without west participation within the Union....our discussions, however pleasant, are essentially moot herein.

That (participation) will continue to be debated. Though I have sent in an application for membership, I have also made it quite clear that I do not agree with the C&BL's, and have not heard any word of its status. C&BL's that were made without our input, damage west careers at the benefit of the east's and limit our ability to make any meaningful changes.
 
Managements responsibility is to fire the people who are not contributing to the new union. We should start with a mix of the East and west pilots who are not paying dues. It is their legal responsibility to do so.

Before any talks continue this should be the priority of USAPA. No free rides.



Sorry I got carried away. It doesn't matter what your moral views are, pay dues or your fired, simple as that.


So to my earlier question of:

"If the pendulum swings back again in favor of the west (perhaps as the result of a lawsuit, judicial ruling or management actions), should the west be willing to compromise if the east hadn't been inclined earlier?"

I'll just put you down as voting NO. That whatever side feels it has the upperhand, should proceed in damaging the lives of the others in as vindictive manner as possible. Thank you for your time.
 
So to my earlier question of:

"If the pendulum swings back again in favor of the west (perhaps as the result of a lawsuit, judicial ruling or management actions), should the west be willing to compromise if the east hadn't been inclined earlier?"

I'll just put you down as voting NO. That whatever side feels it has the upperhand, should proceed in damaging the lives of the others in as vindictive manner as possible. Thank you for your time.


So by your logic, if the East pilots were ever unhappy with the union and thought it was harmful to their perception onprotection of their careers, the 2800 East pilots are automatically exempt from any and all agency fees and union dues.
 
"PS: It must also be farily noted that, without west participation within the Union....our discussions, however pleasant, are essentially moot herein."

Its real simple....if you want west participation you need to change your c&bl's and give the west fair voting rights for the largest base in the system. Oh, that brings us right back to where we were before...ALPA. If all things all equal then we can begin to negotiate something that works for all of us, and thats not date of hire. Stop telling us to participate until things are equal....that goes for all you east guys....thats the moot point. :huh:

As far as the jumpseat thing goes....would you let a pilot from another airline that had a lawsuit filed agaist your pilots ride on your jumpseat? Stop wasting money and tell your BPR to drop this nonsense. Why would we want to particiapte in this union????????????

I'm hardly "telling" anyone out there to participate. That's entirely your choice to make. My comment was simply meant to point out that, absent direct participation, that none out east have any formal reason to really hear what your concerns are, nor act upon them to your benefit. I'm a firm believer that honoring DOH/LOS is fully necessary for even the existence of Unionism, have believed that for as long as I've been involved in airline life, and we'll continue to differ therein. Whether for good or ill; my beliefs aren't subject to change so as to suit any given scenarios that place demands for surrendering them, due simply to any expediency of the moment.

As far as any jumpseat issues go; I'll never deny any that have rights to "my" jumpseat a ride, including any of you out west, and I've certainly no reasons for having any excessive love for your group's politics and behaviors..do I? I consider using the jumpeat as any punative device to be both unprofessional in the extreme, and completely childish behavior to boot. To answer your question = Yes, I would. Overall political strife's no reason to personally abuse another pilot. Such nonsense is purely for children's playgrounds, and I've personally, the utmost contempt for any who think and conduct themselves otherwise.
 
So I've got to ask, in this same vein of mutual civility and briefly ignoring how we got to this present situation, the wounds inflicted or how we change it, what is your take on a dynamic seniority list? One that starts as an immediate reflection of our relative positions at the time of the "snapshot" and is readjusted on a regular basis (annually?) to reflect and benefit the easts greater attrition.

That (participation) will continue to be debated. Though I have sent in an application for membership, I have also made it quite clear that I do not agree with the C&BL's, and have not heard any word of its status. C&BL's that were made without our input, damage west careers at the benefit of the east's and limit our ability to make any meaningful changes.

We're personally at loggerheads on the seniority concept I'm afraid. My belief is that anything that strays from DOH/LOS concepts entirely negates the basics, if you will, of trade Unionism, and establishes a whimsical meritocracy of sarts, that inherently allows for much manipulation from all angles....and none of that last to the lasting good of any.

The birthing of the Union took place within extremely adversarial conditions, and I can understand your issues with the charter, for which I see no easy fix at any level at this time. I'm personally well pleased with the charter and the Union, but again = I'm just one vote. It's of no current consequence, but it must be farily noted that none from the west sought participation in any way, by way of any effort or input, to the establishment of USAPA's charter. That thinking was clearly not the best possible for serving the west contingent's seniority concepts.
 
I have to say that I understand the concerns of some of the west posters...

The collective position they are in is tenuous...to be sure.
I also must say that the concerted effort that was orchestrated by whoever is in charge over there is fostering the ever-widening gap in dialogue, and cementing the resilience of each side in their position.
The west seems to be determined to distance themselves from the union, yet ask repeatedy where the expected results are (contract...etc..)
I absolutely don't get that. I'm trying to be as empathetic and open-minded as possible, but that makes no sense...at all.
From what I read, it's generally dripping with smug sarcasm (regarding the contract)...so whats the point? Those of you who feel that way are not entitled to nag about a contract...
When you begin paying the "service fees" regarding a contract, you are entitled to ask these questions.
Otherwise, it's just argumentative...and a waste of time.

" Someday, I'll have to pay dues....but not today.."

OK, then someday you'll get the answers you seek...but not today.

quid pro quo

How sad.
 
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