US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Freebird]

Not enraged. Calm, cool & methodical. The only parties that "claim" the case is "not ripe" or "will never see the light of day" is USAPA & Seham. Keep up the good work.

This is how it'll most likely go down. USAPA will lose the appeal. Lose Snapbacks. And receive a nice bill (read Assessments) for the damages, $$$. Cleary will think of some other delay method, only to get pressure from the East pilots to Move on and get a contract.

The scope of the Transition Agreement will be tested. The Scope of it has long passed its purpose and a contract will be crammed down by mgmt. Can you vote NO? Of course you can. But the majority will vote YES, although it will be a somewhat substandard contract. "You dont like it? Leave" is what Parker will effectively tell you.

Most level headed East pilots realize the fight is over. They will vote for a contract behind closed doors. It will most likely pass.

USAPA = one failed attempt after another to unseat the Nic award. Hows that workin out? You may think delaying it is a success for now, but in the long run....it will stand.

Those of you who claim to control USAPA's BPR, should have paid more attention during the Merger negotiations. Nic spoke, you failed to listen. Wake spoke, you failed to listen.

Its only a matter of time. The support back East is eroding...

 

[HPDriver]

No reason to debate with idiots.

Understandable that you'd lash out like that.

Desperation does that to people.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

What does VNIIMN mean?

 

[HPDriver]

What does VNIIMN mean?

Vote No If It Means Nic


The east mantra du jour.

All bark, no bite.

 

[Black Swan]

There is quite a bit of downside for those in the east.

You just had your smartest union officer resign. Your Grievance Chairman stated that the chances of winning the LOA 93 arbitration are non-existent because the union. MDA is about to disappear, and the 9th is going to rule against the east before the end of the month.

And Cleary is now looking to complete a contract sooner rather than later:

We expect the decision from the Ninth Circuit soon, based upon the urgency with which the Court addressed the now accomplished briefing schedule and oral argument.
It is my great hope that this will bring to an end the divisive struggle so that we may focus together on the thousand points that we have in common as airline pilots. We can and must find a way to capitalize on our disparate backgrounds to accomplish our goals of creating a new union and finishing our contract negotiations. We can do that by using differences as a broadening of our knowledge base and by respecting each other’s rights to opinions and points of view without personalizing the debate. We must embrace the best from each of our previous airlines as we consolidate the contracts into one.

Doesn't sound like he's a VNIIMN hardliner like the rest of you are. Guess the reality of a rough January/February are setting in.

And just how long do you thing it will take after the Feb 1 hearings for snapbacks for the east to hear anything. I bet nothing comes out before December 2010, if ever!!!

And good luck on that wishful thinking. Three years is a long time and most of the east isn't going to wait.

Its over.

What do you really think Cleary is going to say? Are you really that clueless that you take an official statement as actual intent? There is no way he is going to go forward with a contract that destroys his or other east careers. There is no group of tired,east pilots who want to move forward with a contract.This is the funniest thing of all for our side. We still can't believe you think we are going to cave, and you are getting a raise and jump on everyones back! "most of the east isn't going to wait.." If you were going to be taken advantage of you fight to the end. Hey -Happy New Year, Another year of NO integration. If anyone is going to get tired of it, it will be Parker. The only way out is to spin you off. The longer you cling to your fantasy of combination contract, the greater your chances of getting cut off the corporation are. Think about that. Your greed is most likely going to cost you the entire game. The west is not a very profitable entity. We all know that. Your position is going to cost you dearly. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Republic snatch you off. Good luck with that one.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Thanks Tiger. always appreciate a helping hand from a Westie. I would imagine the lifeline to be greased and studded with nails.

Look Swan, we can go back and forth on our respective positions but you have to recognize that US Airways has a long, rich history of confrontation not only with every single management team but also within its own pilot group. The fact that you would comment that the west would hand you a greased, nail studded lifeline is indicative of your defensive nature. Take a look at the last 5 years! You have continually bitten the hand that feeds and you wonder why you have no movement at the negotiating table. No unity with the west. To be fair I believe the west should have agreed to pay parity but it was instead decided to use that leverage to keep the east at the negotiating table for a single contract. Can't blame us, we just wanted to improve our position as much as you did. But nonetheless you stomped out of the room when Nic came down. You refused to work with the west combining the seniority list and got the Nic. You encourage ill-conceived actions to "let the company know you mean business" burning as much gas as possible. Hey let's run the APU across the Atlantic etc. When the company pushes back you take out a full page ad in USA Today! Cleary is constantly barking at Doug in the media as if it may have some influence! C'mon guys! You must have heard the phrase "kill 'em with kindness?" Instead you froth at the mouth barking incessantly like some rabid junk yard dog lashing out at anything that even remotely presents any type of antagonism. I don't condone lying down and taking what's given to you but you have to see the value of working with others. Even if you have fundamental disagreements! Sadly I believe the "my union will crush any opposition" mentality will continue meaning more hard times for you guys. Who knows maybe you guys will figure it out soon... Enjoy the rest of the holidays!

 

[HPDriver]

What do you really think Cleary is going to say? Are you really that clueless that you take an official statement as actual intent? There is no way he is going to go forward with a contract that destroys his or other east careers. There is no group of tired,east pilots who want to move forward with a contract.This is the funniest thing of all for our side. We still can't believe you think we are going to cave, and you are getting a raise and jump on everyones back! "most of the east isn't going to wait.." If you were going to be taken advantage of you fight to the end. Hey -Happy New Year, Another year of NO integration. If anyone is going to get tired of it, it will be Parker. The only way out is to spin you off. The longer you cling to your fantasy of combination contract, the greater your chances of getting cut off the corporation are. Think about that. Your greed is most likely going to cost you the entire game. The west is not a very profitable entity. We all know that. Your position is going to cost you dearly. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Republic snatch you off. Good luck with that one.

I would think Cleary would maintain the same rhetoric he's been maintaining up until this last message. You remember those tough, union guy messages don't you. Like the one about taking back "our airline" and having Doug removed by the BoD. Interesting how that crap ceased all of a sudden - a soon after Ciabattoni resigned.

Sure as heck never mentioned anything about moving toward a contract in any of his previous messages. Why now all of a sudden? Managing expectations?

You can fight to the end, but understand that the end is near. Parker is not growing weary of anything. The longer he plays this out, the better. The only ones getting burned out are east pilots who are having trouble paying bills and sending their kids to good schools.

We're not going anywhere and Republic isn't coming in to sweep us away. Nic is here and its implementation is a when, not if.

And speaking of cost, your position has cost each of you east guys hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost income and contributions.

Once the hope of arbitration and snapbacks fades, so will the desire of most on the east to fight on. Nic has become an indelible part of this merger and will NEVER go away - even if we merge.

So try and explain away the inevitable, but its practically here. Your VNIIMN is futile.

 

[cleardirect]

No it doesn't. That's why I'm asking. There had to be some kind of disagreement which recently cropped up and is not explained. Unless folks have an idea of what it is, how can we know who is right and who is wrong? Both of those individuals have strong opinions and are not afraid to make them public. Seems bizarre that there has not been any public knowledge of any sort of factional disagreements, as happened regularly with the past CBA and left many "bodies beside the road".

This is a long running problem not something new. If you remember Cleary, Mowery ran on a four man ticket. When DC won the EVP it blocked Cleary from having the total run of the place.

This is well known to the BPR, I have spoken to my rep about it. There have been several fights at BPR meetings. You should call your rep or the west rep to get the full story.

Why does it surprise you that this feud has not been made public? There are a whole lot of things going on with this union that the line pilots don’t know or don’t care to know. The west has been dealing with all of the things that DC said in his resignation letter. Censorship of updates, ill-conceived law suits, BPR not being informed of decisions made by the president, little oversight by the BPR, resolutions not dealt with. Ask your rep about the sexual harassment meeting that went on for two days just so Cleary could have a weapon against the EVP. (It failed BTW) You see our rep tells us all of this at the meetings.

This is just the beginning of the fall. The east line pilots had better pull your collective heads out and figure out what is going on with your union. Look at the last few votes about 50% of the pilots did not bother to vote. If you don’t care to vote and allow Cleary to run amuck with no oversight but just assume that he has your best interest in mind, think again.

You guys are going to wake up one day and find that Seham and Cleary and Mowery sold you a bill of goods and lost a very expensive law suit. Was less than truthful about snap backs, has no way or intention of getting a contract. This union is not going to be dissolved, that would remove Cleary and the other full time flight pay boys and take away their power and control. No one is going to do that to them unless this pilot group figures out what is going on and remove them.

No this union will not dissolve, we will get a message one day that for reasons beyond the line pilots understanding or need to know USAPA has been merged or sold or given to IBT leaving Cleary firmly in control.

These posters here that think they are in control of this union are in for a very rude awakening, nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

[Waketurbulence]

What do you really think Cleary is going to say? Are you really that clueless that you take an official statement as actual intent? There is no way he is going to go forward with a contract that destroys his or other east careers. There is no group of tired,east pilots who want to move forward with a contract.

So what your saying is cleary is lying? He's lying to the east pilots? Lying to the West pilots that make up 40% of the pilot group he and usapa represents? Lying to Judge Wake saying he will comply with the court ordered injunction? Lying to the National Mediation Board requesting their help in negotiations?

You know this for a fact yet condone these alledged criminal actions?

That says alot about you and anyone that thinks like you...

 

[Freebird]

What do you really think Cleary is going to say? Are you really that clueless that you take an official statement as actual intent?

Read into it what you may....the message is simple. The end is near. The East resolve is growing tired of USAPA and the rhetoric.

There is no way he is going to go forward with a contract that destroys his or other east careers. There is no group of tired,east pilots who want to move forward with a contract.This is the funniest thing of all for our side.

It's not his option, anymore. HE will find himself in contempt of court, in short order.

We still can't believe you think we are going to cave,

It's just a matter of time.

and you are getting a raise and jump on everyones back! "most of the east isn't going to wait.." If you were going to be taken advantage of you fight to the end.

We're really not getting any raise...it's you, who will benefit.


Hey -Happy New Year, Another year of NO integration. If anyone is going to get tired of it, it will be Parker. The only way out is to spin you off.

Do you think if he spins us off, that your group would be welcomed by another?


The longer you cling to your fantasy of combination contract, the greater your chances of getting cut off the corporation are. Think about that.

It'll happen. You know it.

Your greed is most likely going to cost you the entire game.

I believe it was your greed that caused this whole mess. Remember the DOH Mantra you told the MC to get from Nicolau?

The west is not a very profitable entity. We all know that. Your position is going to cost you dearly. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Republic snatch you off. Good luck with that one.

Did you forget who runs the show? (its not Usapa) Who acquired whom? Come on, we've all moved past the ancient history.

 

[cleardirect]

What do you really think Cleary is going to say? Are you really that clueless that you take an official statement as actual intent? There is no way he is going to go forward with a contract that destroys his or other east careers. There is no group of tired,east pilots who want to move forward with a contract.This is the funniest thing of all for our side. We still can't believe you think we are going to cave, and you are getting a raise and jump on everyones back! "most of the east isn't going to wait.." If you were going to be taken advantage of you fight to the end. Hey -Happy New Year, Another year of NO integration. If anyone is going to get tired of it, it will be Parker. The only way out is to spin you off. The longer you cling to your fantasy of combination contract, the greater your chances of getting cut off the corporation are. Think about that. Your greed is most likely going to cost you the entire game. The west is not a very profitable entity. We all know that. Your position is going to cost you dearly. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Republic snatch you off. Good luck with that one.

This is truly bizarre world right here. Have some of you gone so far over the edge that you don’t even understand what you are saying?

Yes I expect the president of my union to tell the truth when he releases official communication. Why would you expect anything less, why would you expect him to lie to you?

If what you say is true that Cleary has no intention of moving forward with a contract he is in violation of a federal injunction which will imperil him, the union and all of the members.

Again you make a statement about profitability. Where are the 2008, 2009 P&L’s for each domicile? Please prove your statement.

Keep hoping that the west gets spun off. If anything it will be the rest of the 190’s and the guys flying them. Enjoy the commuters.

It really is amazing that you expect and accept the president lying to you because that is what you think he should do. It is becoming clear why the east pilots were in and still are in the situation that you find yourselves. 2010 is going to be a disappointing year for you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

But somehow people still manage to win even when the odds are against them, time will tell.

Correction - someone wins most of time (but not every time). And it's rarely the person who counts on one of those three tickets being the winner.

Time will indeed tell, and time is running out...

Jim

 

[Coach Cabin]

Black Swan,

Freund warned the west that all the risk was on their side. They had a seniority proposal that was not enforceable. You westies should have listened to your lawyer!

Oh well, you guys are young and smart.......great combination! Too bad you had a premature adjudication.

That ripeness issue is going to be a rough one for the west!

Hate

Doesn't the fact that west pilots were furloughed out of seniority order show that harm HAS already been done? Doesn't that, in fact, prove that the case was ripe? If Wake would have imposed the Nic immediately as the remedy would there be even any discussion of ripeness? Just curious.

 

[HPDriver]

The west is not a very profitable entity...

And I assume BOS and LGA were kicking butt? How about PIT?

 

[Ralph]

Namecalling is strictly forbidden on USAviation.com. Time off has been given. Observe the rules of the board. If you are not familiar with the rules, they are posted at the top of the US Airways forum.