US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[End of USAPA]

Congrats to having yours and flaunting it. We have those on the west too.

As for the upgrades we have many that have by passed the left seat for schedule/lifestyle and felt an extra trip will cover the $$ short fall.

I believe Mr Gold Standard himself has by passed the left seat hasn't he?? Bradford won't even live by his own word. I would have thought he would have got while the getting was there.

Sure, let's go DOH (with your special protections) so I can lose everything I bought to this mess and some guy who brought nothing but a number on a list can slide effortlessly into my seat. I'm all over that.

This was all discussed before ad nausium but I guess it just doesn't mean much to you. Both sides were told to back off their respective positions, I believe (my bad if I'm wrong here) that the west was ready to talk again but to quote Katz "We are happy with our position".

Let's actually get a contract to vote on and see what happens. Did we really request a mediator or were we just blowing smoke for a press release??

The west will not get our attirtion. PERIOD!!!

What else needs to be said? The majority of mergers have gone DOH, even NWA/ DAL were close to a DOH integration as you could get. Why can't any of you understand that? I fly with a lot of people who do not have any inclination for settling (yes, it is settling) for a substandard contract, inheriting the Nic abortion and giving my attrition to the west. So, Parker can give me SOuthwest + 30% and I still won't sign anything!

 

[nic4us]

oscar, nic and clear

I already am in the left seat and have been there for over 22 years at this company.

What separates me on LOA93 and you in the west are a few extra trips a year and some crew meals worth, nothing to blow your horn about.

Our attrition kicks in again in 2 to 3 years. If I were an F/O, and my choice was between a marginally better contract with the NIC, which in all probability will not be ready to vote on for 1 or 2 years - or upgrade due to attrition (our own attrition) - I know how I would decide.

And that's exactly what every single F/O I have flown with has said to me.

I am not trying to convince you otherwise, nor am I trying to be flattering, but let me say this.

First, when a truely senior east pilot makes a post, (yourself,nycbusdriver i.e.) I give it much more credence than alot of the cheap shot jabs we throw around on this thread. ( I do the same for the West posters, many of whom I am aware of their identity).

If you are truely senior, then you are flying with the senior F/Os, those who will gain the most if they can hold on get the upgrade and then get a better contract with even better pay. So I have no doubt that is what you are hearing.

The problem is, there are also those less senior F/Os, maybe even the ones who will never upgrade, that delaying better pay only harms. Now is obviously a terrible time to be in negotiations. The amount of pay we can extract is limited by the bad economy and the companies poor performance. However, if I were a junior east F/O, who is on the bottom with the Nic or the bottom with seperate ops, I would be pissed we passed up a 20% pay raise for the last 7-10 years of my career so that Bradford could finagle a captain seat.

 

[EastUS]

"Seriously, these guys address themselves as Senior International Widebvody Captain...."

Cite references, please. I have not seen that particular (or even similar) terminology here before.

Hmmm....the closest thing I can find to that's oscarjazz's "I am a 1988 hire and am an international captain...."

 

[nic4us]

The west will not get our attirtion. PERIOD!!!

What else needs to be said? The majority of mergers have gone DOH, even NWA/ DAL were close to a DOH integration as you could get. Why can't any of you understand that? I fly with a lot of people who do not have any inclination for settling (yes, it is settling) for a substandard contract, inheriting the Nic abortion and giving my attrition to the west. So, Parker can give me SOuthwest + 30% and I still won't sign anything!

I have given the long answere before, so I will just give the short answere this time.

It is not your attrition anymore.

 

[Hawkhunter]

I am not trying to convince you otherwise, nor am I trying to be flattering, but let me say this.

First, when a truely senior east pilot makes a post, (yourself,nycbusdriver i.e.) I give it much more credence than alot of the cheap shot jabs we throw around on this thread. ( I do the same for the West posters, many of whom I am aware of their identity).

If you are truely senior, then you are flying with the senior F/Os, those who will gain the most if they can hold on get the upgrade and then get a better contract with even better pay. So I have no doubt that is what you are hearing.

The problem is, there are also those less senior F/Os, maybe even the ones who will never upgrade, that delaying better pay only harms. Now is obviously a terrible time to be in negotiations. The amount of pay we can extract is limited by the bad economy and the companies poor performance. However, if I were a junior east F/O, who is on the bottom with the Nic or the bottom with seperate ops, I would be pissed we passed up a 20% pay raise for the last 7-10 years of my career so that Bradford could finagle a captain seat.

So, now it is not the "Senior" guys who are pissed about no contract, it is the "Junior" guys? Would you please make up your mind who is pissed off in the East! You Westies like to sphew how we on the East think so please let us know. The "Junior" guys I fly with dont agree with what you are saying. However, I am sure you Westies know more than we do. If you dont believe me just go ask another Westie.

 

[cubfan]

Alot has been said about position, money, upgrade. For me it's about one thing, A JOB. I've gotten used to the right seat and for now thats ok. Hired in 89, furloughed 03, MDA 04, flying larger mainline jet 06. I was able to move back into a larger jet due to one thing, ATTRITION. That stopped but will be alive again in a couple years. The nic took alot of that job security thru attrition away. If they furlough no more ok, but that becomes a big IF. Seperates ops ok for awhile. Lets say PHL closes, if the furlough hammer hits me ok, but with NIC now if PHX down sizes or closes I get smacked again. If down sizes or sales of east assets cause me to be furloughed before east attrition kicks so be it, I don't think a west pilot should pay. But the same if same happens on west for now. The TA gave me a tool to use to protect my seat until attrition kicks in. When that happens, it should still be my attrition on the east only to take advantage of. Thats a fence Mr. Nic could have used.

 

[Metroyet]

The west will not get our attirtion. PERIOD!!!

What else needs to be said? The majority of mergers have gone DOH, even NWA/ DAL were close to a DOH integration as you could get. Why can't any of you understand that? I fly with a lot of people who do not have any inclination for settling (yes, it is settling) for a substandard contract, inheriting the Nic abortion and giving my attrition to the west. So, Parker can give me SOuthwest + 30% and I still won't sign anything!

YAWN...GEAR UP!!!!

 

[Hawkhunter]

YAWN...GEAR UP!!!!

It is cute little jabs like that is why we would rather have LOA93 than fly with Westies like you. Do you get it now? You are correct though, "YAWN". :down:

 

[Freebird]

Well its not really up to you. Wake has already told you where this tings is going. The loss of appeal will put us all closer to a contract. Will it pass? Good chance, and thats exactly why the BPR---who are reading this, are delaying. Its just a matter of time.

The merger is done. The merger policy was followed. Try to keep up.

Hows that Good Faith bargaining going? Usapas, ummm 'leadership' isnt fooling anyone except the uninformed East pilots.

 

[AWE Dog]

I am not trying to convince you otherwise, nor am I trying to be flattering, but let me say this.

First, when a truely senior east pilot makes a post, (yourself,nycbusdriver i.e.) I give it much more credence than alot of the cheap shot jabs we throw around on this thread. ( I do the same for the West posters, many of whom I am aware of their identity).

If you are truely senior, then you are flying with the senior F/Os, those who will gain the most if they can hold on get the upgrade and then get a better contract with even better pay. So I have no doubt that is what you are hearing.

The problem is, there are also those less senior F/Os, maybe even the ones who will never upgrade, that delaying better pay only harms. Now is obviously a terrible time to be in negotiations. The amount of pay we can extract is limited by the bad economy and the companies poor performance. However, if I were a junior east F/O, who is on the bottom with the Nic or the bottom with seperate ops, I would be pissed we passed up a 20% pay raise for the last 7-10 years of my career so that Bradford could finagle a captain seat.

It seems we are now searching for a segment of the east list that the Nic would benefit. This east F/O without Nic rockets up the list. It seems that Nic benefits no one on the east list. Humm, No benefit to the east, all benefits(windfall) go to west. Do I sense a problem? Somebody give me a reason the east would vote for this. Letter 93? Nope, I was furloughed and I already make more money the every west F/O.

 

[Hawkhunter]

Well its not really up to you. Wake has already told you where this tings is going. The loss of appeal will put us all closer to a contract. Will it pass? Good chance, and thats exactly why the BPR---who are reading this, are delaying. Its just a matter of time.

The merger is done. The merger policy was followed. Try to keep up.

Hows that Good Faith bargaining going? Usapas, ummm 'leadership' isnt fooling anyone except the uninformed East pilots.

Your right, I am sure the company is bargaining in good faith. I am sure that the pilot group will vote for a contract that will result in more furloughs. Why dont you keep up. The "tings" are not going anywhere fast. Tell me ole wise one , just what do you think the company is going to offer good enough for the contract to pass. Cashing in your lotto ticket doesnt count. Keep pounding your little chest but it is not doing any good. It really is not up to you either.

 

[nic4us]

So, now it is not the "Senior" guys who are pissed about no contract, it is the "Junior" guys? Would you please make up your mind who is pissed off in the East! You Westies like to sphew how we on the East think so please let us know. The "Junior" guys I fly with dont agree with what you are saying. However, I am sure you Westies know more than we do. If you dont believe me just go ask another Westie.

Frankly, from my perspective, I cannot figure out why each and every last one of you are not pissed at what you are doing to yourselves.

You should be pissed you did not get parity. You should be pissed you did not get a better contract. You should be pissed that the agency that said it would cut fees hasn't. You should be pissed anyone hired after 87 has been furloughed, even up to 4 times now. You should be pissed that you got recalled to group 2, then displaced to 190. You should be pissed, you should be pissed, You should be pissed. Shall I go on?

I have no idea how you think on the east, other than that it is considerably different to how I think. But rather than take your advice and "just ask another Westie", I will seek a broader understanding and ask this board. Perhaps some lurkers, customers and non pilot employees can comment.

Does anyone understand how the east thinks? Thanks in advance for your reply.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

It is cute little jabs like that is why we would rather have LOA93 than fly with Westies like you. Do you get it now? You are correct though, "YAWN". :down:

Oh please, from the land of the lashing and ranting diatribe....

 

[flyinawa]

Alot has been said about position, money, upgrade. For me it's about one thing, A JOB. I've gotten used to the right seat and for now thats ok. Hired in 89, furloughed 03, MDA 04, flying larger mainline jet 06. I was able to move back into a larger jet due to one thing, ATTRITION. That stopped but will be alive again in a couple years.

Hired in 89: USAir is in good health.
Furloughed in 03: USAir is in trouble.
MDA 04: USAir has allowed you to do the SAME job but at a different company for less money.
Mainline 06: AWA and new investors arrive. USAir has been pulled back from the edge of liquidation. Your return had nothing to do with attrition. It was because you merged (I'm willing to use that term even if I don't agree with it) with a healthy company backed by investors with deep pockets.

The nic took alot of that job security thru attrition away. If they furlough no more ok, but that becomes a big IF. Seperates ops ok for awhile. Lets say PHL closes, if the furlough hammer hits me ok, but with NIC now if PHX down sizes or closes I get smacked again. If down sizes or sales of east assets cause me to be furloughed before east attrition kicks so be it, I don't think a west pilot should pay. But the same if same happens on west for now. The TA gave me a tool to use to protect my seat until attrition kicks in. When that happens, it should still be my attrition on the east only to take advantage of. Thats a fence Mr. Nic could have used.

I understand and don't disagree with what you are saying. Here's something you're not considering though. Why wasn't this rational used during the seniority arbitration? Because the NEW USAir was growing and any consideration of fences would have kept East pilots from bidding into every new CA seat in every base under a DOH integration. Therefore, NO fences were acceptable to the East negotiating committee. Had we discussed fences prior to Nic, I think most West guys would have agreed to it...even big fences for your coveted international flying that you think West pilots are chomping at the bit for. You want protection from attrition but your group also wants all the upgrades. It's too late for another negotiating session. Nic warned the negotiators that it wouldn't be DOH and they REFUSED to come off that position. Don't blame ALPA either. Your negotiators did exactly what they were told to do by YOUR representatives. If you didn't agree with it, you should have voiced your opinion THEN.

As for me, I was more or less expecting straight DOH because I wanted to be ready for the worst case scenario. However, the idea of DOH...including guys who weren't even flying for mainline, or not even flying at all, that was unthinkably ridiculous and everyone, besides the East cheerleaders, knew it.

 

[AWE Dog]

Frankly, from my perspective, I cannot figure out why each and every last one of you are not pissed at what you are doing to yourselves.

You should be pissed you did not get parity. You should be pissed you did not get a better contract. You should be pissed that the agency that said it would cut fees hasn't. You should be pissed anyone hired after 87 has been furloughed, even up to 4 times now. You should be pissed that you got recalled to group 2, then displaced to 190. You should be pissed, you should be pissed, You should be pissed. Shall I go on?

I have no idea how you think on the east, other than that it is considerably different to how I think. But rather than take your advice and "just ask another Westie", I will seek a broader understanding and ask this board. Perhaps some lurkers, customers and non pilot employees can comment.

Does anyone understand how the east thinks? Thanks in advance for your reply.

I'm not really pissed about any of that, I'm not happy about it but I'm not pissed. What I'm pissed about is a guy takes a job at America West 10 years after I started at USair and he's now 1000+ #'s senior to me.