US Pilots labor Discussion 12/4-

[nic4us]

I just keep thinking about the Breeger case in North Carolina and the District Court in DC........and then the Baptiste and Wilder Blog. Bill Wilder says your boy the judge got it wrong.

http://bapwild.com/blog/?p=454

I just keep coming back to our average age in the east being 59 years old now. Not one of us back here gives a .... what another pilot or pilot group thinks of us.

Also, most of us gave up on the legal system in this country with the OJ trial! Then we got to see first hand Wake's court room in the desert..............what a joke! Was that the quickest DFR in union history? Based on a seniority proposal!

Good luck!

Hate

Hate,

The B&W blog? Wilder?, the disgruntled east MEC lawyer who tried to help you weasel out of the Nic in DC, whose case had no merit and whose article reads like a please rehire me, I am smarter than a no-nothing federal judge and L Seham.

Now the part about being 59 and not giving a rats rear, that I understand.

We could actually be the quickest DFR in history. Perhaps the courts keep accepting expedited timeframes for a reason.

Make no mistake, Wake's courtroom is no joking matter, and I doubt usapa will get the requested change of venue for the damages trial.

 

[oscarjazz]

Exactly why the Ninth will overturn Judge Wake. Glad you finally agree with Messr. Seham on that.

You didn't understand my meaning, the company will never accept a change from the Nicolau award. They were a party to the Transition Agreement and therefore they are bound by the arbitration award also. They accepted the list. If they agree to change the list, they face damages from the West pilots. That is why they will never accept a changed list. I believe the company negotiators and executives have made that perfectly clear by now. That is why you will never get released while demanding a date of hire list. The company can never satisfy your demands, no matter what leverage you exert through a strike. Therefore, you will not be allowed to strike.

 

[N924PS]

I just keep coming back to our average age in the east being 59 years old now.

Hate

If that's the case, why not simply capitulate to the Nicolau and get a raise and all that goes along with an industry standard contract?

With only 6 years left to work, and no upgrades/advancement at hand, a 59 year old is stuck where they are today. Why not make a 59 year old F/O's remaining years at least a financial and quality of life success?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You didn't understand my meaning, the company will never accept a change from the Nicolau award. They were a party to the Transition Agreement and therefore they are bound by the arbitration award also. They accepted the list. If they agree to change the list, they face damages from the West pilots. That is why they will never accept a changed list. I believe the company negotiators and executives have made that perfectly clear by now. That is why you will never get released while demanding a date of hire list. The company can never satisfy your demands, no matter what leverage you exert through a strike. Therefore, you will not be allowed to strike.

You don't understand how the NMB works.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Because that [enhancing the financial quality of life] would require dispassionate logic and sound reasoning, which has been notably missing for the past four years.

 

[nic4us]

If that's the case, why not simply capitulate to the Nicolau and get a raise and all that goes along with an industry standard contract?

With only 6 years left to work, and no upgrades/advancement at hand, a 59 year old is stuck where they are today. Why not make a 59 year old F/O's remaining years at least a financial and quality of life success?

Because they are not averaged 59 years old. Watched the 3 part video, Cleary is not 59, walk the concourse in PHL and CLT and the pilots look the same as walking the hall in PHX.

Speaking of the videos, I said prior to tuesday, that I hoped Seham would throw those lies about the Nic in front of the 3 judge panel, and by the way he did.

You know, I just thought of something, although it is not true that the Nic favored "younger less experienced pilots" usapa most certainly argued it is a legitimate right of the union to favor a DOH list to "take care of our older members". When most think about it, there are 4 major groups when speaking of discrimination. Race,Sex,Religion and age. Did Seham just argue age discrimination was a legitimate union objective, and one that usapa was persuing?

 

[Phoenix]

Don’t care what others think
Don’t honor your binding obligations
Don’t think federal judges are as smart as you
Don’t like the company you work for
Don’t care about how your actions affect others.

Enjoy your narcissism – it’s such a respected quality among civilized and moral people everywhere.

You are in denial... he said he doesn't care what others think.

I, on the other hand, am absolutely terrified.. even of webposter opinions.

 

[Phoenix]

USAPA capitulate? Not a chance. ...

And.. :blink:

 

[aquagreen73s]

Did Seham just argue age discrimination was a legitimate union objective, and one that usapa was persuing?

Judge Graber's hypothetical was quite interesting in many ways, but one was that she chose gender. A quick sidenote - there are only a dozen or so protected classifications and there's be a myriad of other non-protected classifications she could have used instead of gender. However, she happened to choose that very one and I'm wondering if there wasn't an implicit dare to Seham in that. Everyone knows her background and for her to choose gender would be like an African American choosing race as the classification or perhaps a judge who is a practicing muslim choosing religious affiliation. It almost seems like she was challenging Seham to go ahead and cross that line as his reasoning is the exact type of reasoning which justified discrimination in this country for more than a century. Remember the Jim Crowe laws? They were legal in the South as the majority voted in the legislatures which wrote those laws and the voters chose the governors to enforce those laws. I still can't believe his answer. If he had an ounce of sense he would have just told her he didn't know and sit down. The way she constructed the question made it impossible for him to answer without forfeiting the rest of his case. He would have been better off had he at least protested that it was an unfair hypothetical and to only answer it in the narrow facts in this case - ie distinguish DOH from gender. She would have badgered him but he sure as heck shouldn't have given her what she was obviously looking for. There's also a timing issue. I find it interesting that she didn't launch the hypo until Dr. Jacob was well into his time. For the plaintiffs it's an easy answer, but Dr. Jacob was soon finished and that meant Seham had little time to think about that hypo. Plus Seham was in his rebuttal time which limited what he could say and how much time he had to argue the point.

I suppose this means that the 9th Cir. is to be added to the incompetent/biased/senile list along with Nicolau, Judge Wake and the nine person jury.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You are in denial... he said he doesn't care what others think.

I, on the other hand, am absolutely terrified.. even of webposter opinions.

Which of the Hotchkiss seven deadly sins of narcissism don’t apply the poster that says he doesn’t care what other think – or any east apologist for USAPAs failure to negotiate in good faith or fairly represent all classes of their membership?

Shamelessness - Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.

Magical thinking - Narcissists see themselves as perfect using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking. They also use projection to dump shame onto others.

Arrogance - If a narcissist is feeling deflated, s/he can reinflate him/herself by diminishing, debasing or degrading somebody else.

Envy - If the narcissist's need to secure a sense of superiority meets an obstacle because of somebody else, s/he neutralizes it using contempt to minimize the other person's ability

Entitlement - Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves uniquely special. Any failure to comply will be considered an attack on their superiority and the perpetrator is considered to be an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.

Exploitation - can take many forms but always involves the using of others without regards for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.

Bad Boundaries - narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all.

 

[CallawayGolf]

And.. :blink:

Saddam Hussein didn't believe he needed to capitulate either. Didn't he get pulled out of a rat hole far away from his million dollar mansions and get executed for his many crimes against his own people? Where would he be now if he put aside his hubris and agreed to fully comply with the UN resolutions?

So an inability to capitulate is always a good plan?

 

[aquagreen73s]

So an inability to capitulate is always a good plan?

Yeah...just ask the residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki how well "never capitulate" worked out for them.

 

[HPDriver]

Interesting that the company wrote the NMB and referred to the DOH proposal from USAPA as "unlawful."

Company also noted that it "cannot bargain over certain proposals USAPA has presented" without risking the violation of the injunction.

In other words, the Nic award is most definitely off the table.

 

[aquagreen73s]

It's even more interesting that it took a self-funded DFR litigation to work its way through the courts before they said this.

 

[Metroyet]

You don't understand how the NMB works.

Lemme guess, Seham does....for a price. (actual mileage may vary)