US Pilots labor Discussion 12/4-

[CallawayGolf]

As the judge said....war of attrition, final and binding is not so final and binding after all!! That's right, just because you paint a hand grenade orange and call it an orange doesn't make it so. The court is attempting to peel the paint off the "form" of the argument and get to the issue or "substance". Calling it "final and binding" and "arbitration" doesn't make it so because you call it that. Lee drove home that point brilliantly and it is obvious. Unless and until the FINAL TALLY is taken, everything else is just that....WORDS!

Here is the government link: http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/vii.html

The extreme the judge was utilizing was the the obvious illegality of the question...she was searching for how it would be ultimately addressed. Answer: the federal government provides the necessary floor or basis of protection in Title 7. When the agreement is inked...both the union AND the company can be sued like in Steele v. Louisville (race discrimination)

Is this an example of the east’s desperation or is it just collective schizophrenia? So Seham has taken to calling the NIC award age discrimination against the east? Does this mean USAPA is taking the moral and legal high ground by negotiating DOH because it would ensure that federal age discrimination laws are not violated? How very righteous and honorable he/they must feel. :down:

Then we have a post that implies that west pilots are not a federally protected class for discrimination so the failure to use the NIC is not against federal law. Now that’s what I call total desperation. Who on the west tried to appeal to federal discrimination laws as the basis for the legal action brought against USAPA?

Judge Graber wasn’t asking if the east or west pilots were considered a protected class. She was reframing the ripeness question in terms of a clear intent to harm a minority class for the express benefit of the majority. Exactly how the 9th will rule on ripeness is not a certainty at this point, but Seham was the only one in the court attempting to link the case to a federal discrimination issue. What a piece of work. Well compensated, but not a grain of conscience or personal ethics.

 

[hp_fa]

Then please explain why the over the top and aggressive action to change venues away from PHX and judge Wake? (documents 622-1,622-2, 625,630)

If you are going to win and the case dismissed why spend another $30,000- $40,000 asking for a change of venue? Why not just wait and take the win, no more judge Wake?

Could it be that USAPA /Seham is not so confident that they are going to win or is it Seham is just trying to grab the last dollar that he can, taking more money from the pilots? Who is in charge of legal strategy and who is authorizing these expenditures? Anyone know the answer to this?

I have, in the past, openly suggested that Seham has been papering files in order to justify higher legal bills which, in turn, benefit Seham. The whole change of venue argument is a case in point and the way it has been written is likely not going to be well received by Judge Wake. To me it seems as if USAPA's legal strategy now is based on a second appeal to the 9th if and when Judge Wake denies a change of venue. It also seems as if he is papering the file for a possible appeal to the Supreme Court.

 

[nic4us]

Interesting that the company wrote the NMB and referred to the DOH proposal from USAPA as "unlawful."

Company also noted that it "cannot bargain over certain proposals USAPA has presented" without risking the violation of the injunction.

In other words, the Nic award is most definitely off the table.

Where are these letters to the NMB that apparently both the company and usapa have sent?

 

[Metroyet]

For ALPA its all about the dues money.

What's USAPA all about? What's "pretext" again?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Interesting thoughts, HP. The problem for them if this is actually their plan is that the DFR is a separate matter and the decision will be coming down from the 9th sooner rather than later. If USAPA wants to play games with a federal judge on the damages matter, well that doesn't seem like there'll be a long term payoff as the other matter will still be before the judge.

And federal judges have plenty of tools to deal with recalcitrant parties.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The extreme the judge was utilizing was the the obvious illegality of the question...she was searching for how it would be ultimately addressed. Answer: the federal government provides the necessary floor or basis of protection in Title 7. When the agreement is inked...both the union AND the company can be sued like in Steele v. Louisville (race discrimination)

You're close, but you're missing the timing issue. Justice delayed is justice denied. If you're haning your hat on the argument that the panel will agree to stay completely removed from the DFR process until there is an actual agreement, then you must have missed all of the references from the panel related to time.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The long-term payoff is all for Seham's benefit.

 

[nic4us]

It also seems as if he is papering the file for a possible appeal to the Supreme Court.

The only way this will end up in the SCOTUS, is if usapa gets a favorable but split ruling from the 9th. i.e. Addington might be able to get it to the Supremes, but usapa will not.

But my question is, if the 9th upholds Wake, would a filing with the Supremes delay Wakes courtroom. Would we have to wait until usapa was denied the final appeal? From a practical sense, I would think not because usapa will lose alot of support if the 9th rules in favor of the West class, but the promise of delay seems to be a big motivator for the east resolve.

 

[nic4us]

Justice delayed is justice denied.

Hence the expedited court schedule.

On your other topic, we will know pretty quick what the 9th is thinking. If they grant usapa's request for a stay, looks good for usapa, if they deny the request for stay, looks good for Addington.

 

[nycbusdriver]

In other words, the Nic award is most definitely off the table.

For now, anyway.

USAPA has already said that, in compliance with the injunction, that the USAPA bargaining position is now the Nicolau.

I thought you folks said you won, and USAPA is bargaining with Nicolau as the official list.

Or are you really not sure that you've won?

 

[nycbusdriver]

No one is going to hire a pilot who has demonstrated his lack of ethics by supporting a union that reneges on binding arbitration agreements.

Hahaha! Reneging on contracts is what a lot of airline managing is about. Parker is a case in point. Ethics? In this industry? YHGTBSM!

 

[nycbusdriver]

OK one of you east guys is going to have to help me with some east logic because I am not getting it. The USAPA update about the ninth circuit appeal seemed very positive and gives the impression they did very well. Reports from SFO are that USAPA was very happy with the outcome of oral arguments.

If this is the case and USAPA/Seham is so confident that this case is going to be dismissed on ripeness.

Then please explain why the over the top and aggressive action to change venues away from PHX and judge Wake? (documents 622-1,622-2, 625,630)

If you are going to win and the case dismissed why spend another $30,000- $40,000 asking for a change of venue? Why not just wait and take the win, no more judge Wake?

Could it be that USAPA /Seham is not so confident that they are going to win or is it Seham is just trying to grab the last dollar that he can, taking more money from the pilots? Who is in charge of legal strategy and who is authorizing these expenditures? Anyone know the answer to this?

You are absolutely right. I agree with you once again. You definitely are "not getting it."

It is every attorney's job to pursue every avenue to insure a positive outcome for his/her client. Any stone left unturned is a failure to provide that best possible outcome.

Seham's pursuit of a change of venue has nothing to do with confidence, or lack thereof. He sees it as yet another way to turn the game in USAPA's favor if it is a successful move.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Hahaha! Reneging on contracts is what a lot of airline managing is about. Parker is a case in point. Ethics? In this industry?

The "everybody does it excuse". How personally satisfying for your self esteem. If the Company has unlawfully violated labor contracts then USAPA should have the leverage in all future negotiations. Of course if they weren't on this fools errand against the west pilots, they might be able to focus on the things they can actually win.

 

[cleardirect]

Where are these letters to the NMB that apparently both the company and usapa have sent?

They are on the usapa web site. Listed in members section under misc letters and docs. Dated 12/4 and 12/11.

It tried to send them but they are to big.

 

[Metroyet]

First, I'm not Lee.

Secondly, YOU have a problem: MONEY! Try and raise a million more from your poor comrades.

Moreover, don't join the union and you have no vote....your discrimination argument is not statutory. you have no claim there. Then you'll get another judge, most likely. Argued ALL OVER again.

Lastly, if you DO become a member, it will be proven that YOU HAD A VOTE!!! You participated! We know your argument.

War of attrition. Show me the money!! You guys just don't get it...IT'S THE VOTE!

You guys are right...."YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!"

Sounds like someone is starting to go off the reservation. Money will never be a problem. The wheels of justice haven't been slowed one bit for any financial reasons and they never will be. Besides, you guys are going to pay us back anyway.