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US Pilots labor Discussion 12/4-

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but that does mean it probably wasn't addressed in the written briefs.

Wonder how many thousands of pages those written briefs would fill if an attempt was made to address every possible question 3 judges could possibly ask. Isn't one purpose of the oral arguments to give each sides lawyers an opportunity to answer questions that aren't necessarily covered by the written briefs.

Jim
 
Even if you pull out a victory here in the 9th we would never ratify the Nicolau any way.

Looks like you guys really have us in a bad spot! LOL

Hate

Your right, you will never ratify the.....oops forgot about that pesky FEDERAL INJUNCTION,,,,can you say CONTEMPT OF COURT? EL Preidente Cleary would learn alot serving time in Federal Prison. Wonder how much East Pilots assesments would be if Wake levied a couple million dollar fine on USAPA? Better save some pennies.
Just think back to the AA pilots and what they got hit with by a Federal District judge. Try $45 million fine, with $10 million to be immediately deposited with the court. Don't mess with a Federal District judge or it can get very expensive,
Still laughing?
LOL
Love our Justice system
 
So are you saying the injunction forbids me from voting "no" on a contract?
 
That pause reminded me of the scene in The Terminator when you're inside Arnie's eye looking out and you see the scrolling video calculations from the supercomputer as it processes the unfolding events. It doesn't take long to be around Andy before you figure out he's quite intelligent. It's probably fair to call him a genius.


Or it could be a truely Forrest Gump moment;

That's all I am going to say about that"....
 
Losing 16-1/2 years....

Is that pilot at TOS
Is that pilot getting max vacation (such as it is)? There's that "missing" 16.5 years.

Is that pilot ahead of a 16 year employee in the same boarding priority when competing for non-rev seats? There's that "missing" 16.5 years.

In other words, that 16.5 year pilot gets what he/she has always gotten for time put in.

Jim
How about the agents the mechanics and relative the flight attendants the dispatchers. Oh! Not the same I forgot
 
Toward the end the female judge presents a hypothetical about ripeness: "If a union was negotiating to place all males above females, would a suit be ripe?"

I think Seham lost a great opportunity here. If he had said something like " no it would not be if they were all hired after the males" he might have helped the cause.
 
Yes, and it's mentioned in point 1 which is then followed by a period. Point 2 is the actual reduction language and there is no date. Points 3 and 4 (not shown) also are separated by periods and like point 2, they have no dates. For the date mentioned in Point one to apply to all four, then the drafters should have either inserted the date in each of the points, or put the date in the preamble sentence itself. Furthermore, your bargaining agent has been trying for years to negotiate pay rates lower than LOA 84, and the logical inference from that is there was no expectation that the LOA 93 pay reduction had a sunset clause. (Otherwise, why negotiate a pay cut?)

Best of luck, though.
LOA93 is not a contract. It is an agreement modifying an underlying contract. Actually, it is a modification to a contact that was modified twice before, with the restructuring agreement and then LOA84.
Line one accomplishes two things: it defines a pay rate and freezes it for a specified time.
Line 2 simply reduces the frozen rate by a specified amount (18%). "as frozen" provides the link back to the Line 1 language. Implied is a simple 'If-Then' test: If the rates are not frozen, then they cannot be reduced, and the provision in Line 2 is nulled. Line 2 is just a modifier to the modifier in line 1.
As far as I know, points 3 and 4 are not in dispute, are they? I am in total agreement with you that this language should have been ironclad and not subject to interpretation. Let's all thank our ALPA friends for that.
The big argument here is what the 'status quo' should be. Mr. Parker states that status quo is the current rate.
USAPA says the status quo is the underlying agreement, as modified by the various LOAs. Guys, a specific end date on a specific term (Freeze until 12/31/09) means what is says. The freeze is over at the end of the year. Any reasonable person can understand that.
Lines 1 and 2 cease to exist on 1/1/10. If they don't exist, what is the defined rate of pay?
LOA84 - the underlying modifying agreement (which was not superceded or cancelled) - the rates are defined there in black and white.
The argument that USAPA has been negotiating for lower payrates is all hot air and blather - just a slick attempt to discredit and dismiss the issue. Everyone, including Mr. Parker, knows that other provisions in the contract, not just the pay rates, have a monetary value (Cost accounting 101: "Everything has a cost"). So, vacation, sick, reserve, min days, etc. improvements all have value and in aggregate with the pay rate in fact means we are asking for more, not less. Anyway, what is being negotiated for has no bearing on these contract provisions, it is just misdirection and subterfuge.
LOA84 1/1/10.
Happy New Year.
 
The east contract is full of poor language that has usually bitten the pilots. Will this one bite the company? Look at the change of DH to pay no credit. The company decided that they could use that to make a trip with a DH mean that it paid no rigs. That logic to me is like saying I took a shower today so I won't eat lunch. They lost that one. Is that the same situation here? I have no idea, IMHO the arbitrator will look at both side's case, look for the intent and issue a ruling. We can argue about it all day but in the end will live with what he/she decides, not Parker's decision or USAPA's.

I wouldn't plan my 2010 budget on winning.

A USAPA win would be good for all pilots. I think it is the only thing that would get the company to negotiate in good faith.
 
So are you saying the injunction forbids me from voting "no" on a contract?
Nope. What the injunction says is that every contract presented will include the Nicolau. So if you are happy with the current contract and pay rates. Enjoy until retirement. Otherwise take the time to actually read the contract if usapa ever gets to one and decide. If you are a single issue voter your choice.

Even judge Wake said that something about this in his findings of facts.
 
How about the agents the mechanics and relative the flight attendants the dispatchers. Oh! Not the same I forgot
That is OK Seham forgets that all the time too. Yes it is different and irrelevant to our case.

Would you care to operate under the F/A’s contract and pay rates? No, why not? You want to operate under their merger policy why not just include everything that they do?
 
LOA84 1/1/10.
Happy New Year.

A fascinating argument, but for you to be right #2 in LOA 93 should have said "Reduce pay rates while frozen by 18%" instead of "as frozen". That one word could have been an error by "ALPA" as your say, or it could reflect the intent. An arbitrator will decide. Oh, wait...that great legal scholar Lee Seeham said arbitrator's ruling can't be "final and binding" because that term has no meaning. I guess the company can do whatever it wants since the ultimate end to the grievance process is unenforceable...

Jim
 
IMHO the arbitrator will look at both sides case, look for the intent and issue a ruling. We can argue about it all day but in the end will live with what he/she decides, not Parker's decision or USAPA's.
Intent, plain language, past practices...all rolled into one.

I wouldn't plan my 2010 budget on winning.
Sage advice. What's irritating is how so many refuse to plan for an alternative. Like the seniority arbitration, it's the "this or nothing" mentality without any consideration for the big picture.


A USAPA win would be good for all pilots. I think it is the only thing that would get the company to negotiate in good faith.
It would be great for all pilots. Unfortunately, the odds strongly favor the company on this one. We'll see.
 
It would be great for all pilots. Unfortunately, the odds strongly favor the company on this one. We'll see.


I agree. I think the entire process favors the company and that's one of the reason the operate the way they do. What do we have, 300+ grievances? If the company loses the worst it costs them is what they would have paid if they did it right the first time. Add in a totally dysfunctional pilot group and, voila, a new American culture management team's dream come true.
 
Another thing. Should the arbitrator rule in USAPA's favor the company would likely use a bankruptcy to void it. No-win scenario.
 
Another thing. Should the arbitrator rule in USAPA's favor the company would likely use a bankruptcy to void it. No-win scenario.
No $$ for DIP finances. Chapter 7 is the only choice. Everyone loses, including the Doogie and Scooter show.
Cheers.
 
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