US Pilots labor Discussion 12/4-

[Megasnoop]

Snoop, good post, but I have one thing for you. There is a third course for the 9th regarding Ramey. The case is ripe, and does not contradict Ramey, because usapa did more than announce an intention to breach its duty, they actually did breach their duty by their actions.

Nic, thats the entire heart of the ripeness debate. Was their actual breach? Intentions were DOH. Contract presentation was DOH. But does that cross the Ramey threshhold? I know your position, but your saying it does, doesn't make it so.

"For these reasons we do not require nor even permit union members to bring suit against their union simply because the union has announced their future intentions to breach its duty." The Ninth will decide, not cockpit/crewlounge lawyers.

Ya'll need to pick a story and stick to it. Capt Underpants says that the company wrote the LOA 93 language then you call it "ALPA language." Can't be both. Jim

You know, Jim, we're not some big monolith acting all together. We don't need a same story. ALPA signed off on the language, so it's their intent, not USAPAs. Thats the point, nitpicking got-yas that serve no point. How is that or misspelling wear for where going to make a single difference?

 

[ableoneable]

None exists, of course. Just as there has not been a successul airline pilot strike in the US since deregulation.

How about Northwest in 1998?

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Do you suppose USAPA would even put out a strike vote if they knew best-case scenario they would only get a 66% YES result ( remember the vote goes to the entire pilot group, not the He-Man Westy Haters Club - so more like <35%)? There will be no self help until USAPA is shown the door.

He-man Westy Haters Club

Love it!

 

[N924PS]

How about Northwest in 1998?

I forgot about that one.

ALPA got a "win" on that one for NW pilots:

http://aabss.org/journal1999/f29Schultz.html

But they had a unified pilot group. USAPA doesn't.

 

[oscarjazz]

Navigating the section 6 process to reach an impass requires shrewd union leadership.

Don't expect to reach an impass anytime soon; not with these idiots.

One other point, as long as USAPA is making an unattainable demand to redo the seniority list to DOH, they will never be released by the NMB. The NMB will not allow a union to strike when they are making demands that are not possible for the company to deliver in any form. If USAPA wants to get to a strike, then they will have to abandon their DOH demands and accept the Nicolau list, unaltered. Once again, they are wedged into a corner and the only way out is the give up this fool's errand of undoing the seniority arbitration. There is no other path available to them except to to give up this fight. Their resources will be much better spent trying to heal up this pilot group and get some contractual gains.

By the way, at Delta they just posted the first bid moving time around the system and it will be a joint bid open to all. There are nearly 1,000 jobs changing around. That bid has 100 more openings than losses meaning that they will need to hire 100 pilots (or recall pilots that previously bypassed). There is a better way than fighting each other to the death over the seniority list. Try it.

 

[hp_fa]

One other point, as long as USAPA is making an unattainable demand to redo the seniority list to DOH, they will never be released by the NMB. The NMB will not allow a union to strike when they are making demands that are not possible for the company to deliver in any form. If USAPA wants to get to a strike, then they will have to abandon their DOH demands and accept the Nicolau list, unaltered.

Excellent point. You are likely correct.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Pretty stupid statement. Since it's generally the pilots at each airline that do the hiring, I doubt that any pilot that didn't support his union would be hired. That's pretty much the way it's always worked in this screwed up industry, except for a few that managed to "sneak" in.

Personally, i'd find it a huge dishonor to be called that by anybody. Just shows how selffish one can be.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. This industry is so screwed up that scabs against ALPA can fly 777 captain for one of the premier ALPA-represented carriers in the United States, and now be an ALPA member in good standing. They're called Continental scabs.

Once ALPA decided to kiss and make up with CO, and allow scabs to rejoin, it lost ALL credibility with its exhortation to never be a scab. There proved that there is really is no downside to being a scab, other than when you have to look in the mirror. But for those with the stomach to get past that (and the cold shoulders from co-workers,) what exactly is the downside when the upside might mean a quick upgrade and never a loss of paycheck?

I fly with first officers all the time who would be flying CO 777 as captain had they decided to fly through that failed ALPA strike. I am proud to fly with them because they have the courage of their convictions. But ALPA's stance truly rings hollow with them, as it should for all union pilots.

Airlines and aviation operators hire scabs all the time. That's just the way it is. It is a screwed up industry, but scabbing seems to have little historical detriment to career progression since the days of deregulation.

 

[Phoenix]

If the west wins the appeal and usapa losses the snap back grievance what does usapa (the current leadership) have left to offer the east pilots? It would be time to remove the current leadership (notice I said leadership not union) and replace them with someone that is at least reasonable.

Yeah... we would all then realize that its time for the union to adopt a concessionary strategy so that we can finally feel like we are doing something to save our jobs... we might never again have a chance to invest in capitulation.

 

[CallawayGolf]

USAPA capitulate? Not a chance. They will remain “supremely confidentâ€￾ and spin every legal defeat or failed negotiation into a “full-page advertisementâ€￾ campaign that yields precious little to the pocketbooks of its members. They have a monolithic strategy: delay the NIC at all costs and just put a window dressing on the rest of the issues in hopes that the rank-and-file will follow along like good union members are supposed to. :blush:

 

[oldiebutgoody]

One other point, as long as USAPA is making an unattainable demand to redo the seniority list to DOH, they will never be released by the NMB. The NMB will not allow a union to strike when they are making demands that are not possible for the company to deliver in any form. ...

Exactly why the Ninth will overturn Judge Wake. Glad you finally agree with Messr. Seham on that.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Ripeness is the only thread by which USAPA is hanging on to at this point. Remanding the case back to Judge Wake’s district court until it is deemed ripe is only an “overturn†of his ruling in the sense of timing. It would certainly advance USAPA’s goal of creating yet another delay of the NIC so I guess that’s something to get excited about if you are on the east and agree with the delay / stalemate strategy.

The question before the court was by no means an easy one. So assuming the circuit court took the time to read and understand Wake’s procedures then I think they will agree the case is ripe. If they only looked at the case for the 35 minutes of the oral arguments, it could go either way. Wake fully established that the Company has only one list to be used for future contracts and will only negotiate using that list. So if USAPA refuses to negotiate using the Company list, then USAPA is negotiating in bad faith to intentionally create the situation where a new contract is unattainable (Oldie's point). As such Wake correctly ruled that the matter before his court was ripe and further placed an injunction on USAPA to begin to negotiate in good faith using the NIC as the seniority list.

If the 9th doesn’t dig deep enough into this, then they might well be fooled into thinking the case isn’t ripe. The only way to spin that ruling into a “win†or a claim of victory is for those who hold the idea of abiding by the law and keeping the agreements you make with contempt. IOW – only obey the law or honor your agreements if pleases you or until you have absolutely no other choice. An extremely sad insight on the scruples of those who would celebrate such a “winâ€. Not that I think that will be the outcome.

 

[Hate2fly]

I just keep thinking about the Breeger case in North Carolina and the District Court in DC........and then the Baptiste and Wilder Blog. Bill Wilder says your boy the judge got it wrong.

http://bapwild.com/blog/?p=454

I just keep coming back to our average age in the east being 59 years old now. Not one of us back here gives a .... what another pilot or pilot group thinks of us.

Also, most of us gave up on the legal system in this country with the OJ trial! Then we got to see first hand Wake's court room in the desert..............what a joke! Was that the quickest DFR in union history? Based on a seniority proposal!

Good luck!

Hate

 

[aquagreen73s]

Also, most of us gave up on the legal system in this country with the OJ trial!

You watch too much TV.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I just keep thinking about the Breeger case in North Carolina and the District Court in DC........and then the Baptiste and Wilder Blog. Bill Wilder says your boy the judge got it wrong.

http://bapwild.com/blog/?p=454

I just keep coming back to our average age in the east being 59 years old now. Not one of us back here gives a .... what another pilot or pilot group thinks of us.

Also, most of us gave up on the legal system in this country with the OJ trial! Then we got to see first hand Wake's court room in the desert..............what a joke! Was that the quickest DFR in union history? Based on a seniority proposal!

Good luck!

Hate

Don’t care what others think
Don’t honor your binding obligations
Don’t think federal judges are as smart as you
Don’t like the company you work for
Don’t care about how your actions affect others.

Enjoy your narcissism – it’s such a respected quality among civilized and moral people everywhere.

 

[cleardirect]

I just keep thinking about the Breeger case in North Carolina and the District Court in DC........and then the Baptiste and Wilder Blog. Bill Wilder says your boy the judge got it wrong.

http://bapwild.com/blog/?p=454

I just keep coming back to our average age in the east being 59 years old now. Not one of us back here gives a .... what another pilot or pilot group thinks of us.

Also, most of us gave up on the legal system in this country with the OJ trial! Then we got to see first hand Wake's court room in the desert..............what a joke! Was that the quickest DFR in union history? Based on a seniority proposal!

Good luck!

Hate

The breeger case had different facts. The DC case was dropped. An attoney that did work for east pilots.

Nothing convincing yet.

You don't care what others think of you but post the only piece written that supports your idea. Makes you want to go hummmmm.

Average age of 59????? I think you missed that by a bit. with 3000 pilots and an average age of 59. about 1500 of them have to be over 60. Not quite yet.

Want to take a stab at why it was the fastest DFR in history? Because USAPA was wrong on so many issues.