US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Crzipilot]

Not sure if anyone posted the link. But it is a fairly quick read, 26 pages, and very interesting side comments on the validity of the NIC. Maybe not the validity, but they offer some insight as to whether USAPA has to actually use that award as the the WEST pilots so loudly claim they do. I think there are some hints in there saying, that USAPA doesn't have to, as long as the seniority negotiated does not extremely favor one side over the other.

Interesting....

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2010/06/04/09-16564.pdf

 

[Crzipilot]

[5] We conclude that this case presents contingencies that
could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the
accompanying injury. At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA. Likewise, it is not certain whether that proposal
will be ratified by the USAPA membership as part of a new,
single CBA. Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal — whatever USAPA’s final proposal ultimately
is. Because these contingencies make the claim speculative,
the issues are not yet fit for judicial decision.

[7] Plaintiffs correctly note that certain West Pilots have
been furloughed, whereas they would still be working under
a single CBA implementing the Nicolau Award. It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated. That the court cannot fashion a remedy
that will alleviate Plaintiffs’ harm suggests that the case is not
ripe.1


[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3



Kinda sounds here, that USAPA is kinda free to negotiate whatever seniority proposal they wish, And not until it's actually voted into a CBA will the west be able to determine whether or not an actual DFR has happened.

What say you West pilots?

 

[Freebird]

Man, those grapes are sour!

Nobody said you couldn't take your toys and leave.

Sour Grapes?

Would you call the fact that your side agreed to Binding Arbitration (do you even know what that means?) and couldn't live with the BINDING ARBITRATION outcome, sour grapes? If not, why?

 

[Freebird]

Freebird. First of all, we did win something. We got the frivolous Addington issue over with. Secondly, this was a clear definition going forward with regard to what a judge can, and more importantly, cannot do. They cannot meddle in internal union issues. Neither can the company. The DFR issue is not going to come again. You have a new bargaining agent, and it has NOTHING to do with what ALPA has done. How can you hold USAPA to any ALPA agreement? You can't. Try it again. You will find it will be even harder than ever, especially when everybody saw what Wake did. Those law clerks in San Fran must have been shaking their heads, just like we told you all along. Leonides is absolutely in the dark with regard to the RLA. This is no pipe dream. You just got a reality check as to what really can and cannot be done with unions. Wake was absolutely out of his league with the RLA. The company knows where they stand. They are smart on this. They know it is USAPA, not ALPA. That is why they keep it on the shelf. I give them a lot of credit for knowing that much. If you guys come after this again, you better be ready to pay.

What did you win? The right to equally represent the West pilots? You're at Square One, "Bro". It's only a matter of time before your violate the NIC Award and find yourself in another DFR.

The Judge has nothing to do with it. He and a jury of your peers found USAPA guilty. The 9th disgreed, but read their reasoning. (Hint) because you dont have a CBA that has altered the Nic....yet. When you do. D-F-R.

I think the reality check is coming with what you CANNOT do to the Binding Arbitration. Stand by. The company isnt going to give you DOH. Period.

Keep enjoying your substandard contract in the meantime.

It's foolish pride to celebrate a pipedream that you can effectively step on West pilots "Career Expectations", I know that means nothing to you. But the rest of the industry have seen how low the East will go to make themselves whole. Too bad you have no honor left.

NRBAGFY

 

[Crzipilot]

What did you win? The right to equally represent the West pilots? You're at Square One, "Bro". It's only a matter of time before your violate the NIC Award and find yourself in another DFR.

The Judge has nothing to do with it. He and a jury of your peers found USAPA guilty. The 9th disgreed, but read their reasoning. (Hint) because you dont have a CBA that has altered the Nic....yet. When you do. D-F-R.

I think the reality check is coming with what you CANNOT do to the Binding Arbitration. Stand by. The company isnt going to give you DOH. Period.

Keep enjoying your substandard contract in the meantime.

It's foolish pride to celebrate a pipedream that you can effectively step on West pilots "Career Expectations", I know that means nothing to you. But the rest of the industry have seen how low the East will go to make themselves whole. Too bad you have no honor left.

NRBAGFY

Really now....have you read the decision??? Mainly look up a few posts, but points 7 and 8 I think they are....plus are few other comments littered around the decision regarding the use or non use of the NIC award........

You guys may want to stop listening to you unofficial leaders and see what the courts actually said....

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

Seems fairly straight forward in english there.....

didn't know your career expectations included cashing in a lottery ticket....

 

[Freebird]

CRZIpilot wrote/quoted:


Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3



Kinda sounds here, that USAPA is kinda free to negotiate whatever seniority proposal they wish, And not until it's actually voted into a CBA will the west be able to determine whether or not an actual DFR has happened.

What say you West pilots?
[/quote]



Do you really think you are going to get DOH? Seriously? USAPA will repackage a list, to appease your AFO group and it will look alot like the NIC. If the west is disadvantaged, you will be in violation of a DFR. Tread lightly.

Where's the new contract? Lets get on with it. I'd like to see a payraise. USAPA.....what say you? Where is my raise you promised in 90 days "on Property"? My bet is USAPA will continue to flail and your pilots will Wake up again, downtrodden, wondering where the money is. Parker and Co. have your number.

 

[Crzipilot]

Who knows what will come out of Section 22. Not sure how your disadvantaged from your unions constitution and bylaws, if there are sufficient restrictions put in place to protect your spot in Phx on the A320 or your handful of 757's.

Anything beyond that, is pure speculation as to who would fly or get what seat etc, which I'm sure the courts would not want to go into the crystal ball business, as obviously these 2 judges refused to do.

 

[Freebird]

Really now....have you read the decision??? Mainly look up a few posts, but points 7 and 8 I think they are....plus are few other comments littered around the decision regarding the use or non use of the NIC award........

You guys may want to stop listening to you unofficial leaders and see what the courts actually said....

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

Seems fairly straight forward in english there.....

didn't know your career expectations included cashing in a lottery ticket....

Cashing in a lottery ticket? USAirways East pilots are lucky to still be working. Them's just the facts. Career Expectations at AWA were upgrade in what????? 6 years? what was upgrade in the East? Lets see, bottom guy was 17 years (about 10 years of Furlough time?) and bottom Captain what? 23 Years? Lets see 6 or 23. Career Expectations were a lot better in the West. Look it up yourself.


Tread lightly, my friend...

 

[Phoenix]

Baring a merger announcement, or a new representational election, the next milestone for our pilot group will be the vote on a CBA that our union crafts in negotiations with the company. Those who are contacting their union in a civil way are having an impact on what they will get to vote on.

 

[Crzipilot]

Cashing in a lottery ticket? USAirways East pilots are lucky to still be working. Them's just the facts. Career Expectations at AWA were upgrade in what????? 6 years? what was upgrade in the East? Lets see, bottom guy was 17 years (about 10 years of Furlough time?) and bottom Captain what? 23 Years? Lets see 6 or 23. Career Expectations were a lot better in the West. Look it up yourself.


Tread lightly, my friend...

Again, the upgrades and deliveries etc, was a small blip in the big picture of what was going on in the industry at that time. Look at the bigger picture, and the view changes some what. As long as you continue to hold on to a myopic view point, as opposed to looking forward with what we have to accomplish and finish, you will forever be unhappy and bitter.

Make a note of what you want in a contract, how you want to be protected for your expected career progression, and send it to you legally elected union. From there you can help finish what must be done...

 

[767intl]

For this to happen, and it would be good- would take the action of all sides to recognize any tenet of ALPA is not part of what moves forward. The Nic is the baggage left by ALPA on the doorstep, ticking away. If someone tries to bring it into the new house, it will not work.

BS, I guess it's time to get back on the board and post. I hadn't seen much to post about or answer for the past four months. Nothing but West surly comments and pontifications. So, no Cleary/Bradford "perp" walk. No Seham "frog march." Maybe, finally, the West guys have learned a lesson.

HP_fa: En Banc? Maybe when pigs fly. But what was AOLs attorney gonna say?

The court never had to address the behavior of Wake. Other than to say the case wasn't ripe. IOW: Judge, you wasted Million$ of $$ on a case that should have never been brought to begin with.

What now? Throw good money after bad? On the conference call, there were the demands that we sue for attorney's fees. But sue who? For what? A financially broken and soon to be despised AOL? Seham put that to rest very quickly. Not in our best interests. Not that we could win it anyway. As many tried to explain to old HP_fa, under the "American Plan," it's near impossible to sue for attorney's fees when a judge lets a case go forward.

West, you lost. The court didn't even have to rule on the many other issues, sticking only to ripeness. They made it quite clear that bargaining agents can do just that: bargain, uninhibited except for the possibility of another DFR. And NIC may not be the only way.

Solutions? A lot rides on MDA . After a read of Haber's brief (which, btw, arrived on time), it looks like ALPA has some tough sledding ahead. Not that ALPA was all that natsy, but ultimately they will have to pay the price for the East MC tossing the MDAers under the bus. Could put ALPA out of business. UAL's settlement almost did that to ALPA last winter.

It sounds like time for some cooler heads to take control out west. Are there any? Maybe not.

Proposal: USAPA scientifically poll all members on what will pass. NIC+20% raises? NIC+50%? NIC+75%? Or how about DOH with restrictions/protections/fences?

How about DOH with a one-way fence: West pilots may bid any East vacancy based on DOH. East pilots will be fenced out of PHX for 10 years, starting with the new contract, except East pilots can bid a PHX vacancy at the bottom of the list, behind the most junior West pilot.

Westies: We got massive retirements coming up. They don't start in 30 months. More like next summer. We're getting old. Between medicals, unfortunate deaths and older pilots' needs to start using their 1500 hours of sick leave, the company can't maintain the current staffing. Once retirements/medicals start, we're going out at 5 times your rate. You'll have control of the union in 3 years. Patience, grasshoppers.

Meanwhile, USAPA, time to retire the RICO. Holding it over the west's heads has served its purpose.

 

[767jetz]

Despite vigorous protestations to the contrary, our union, and only our union, is free to negotiate the CBA that we will vote on. Everything else that people are chasing (even appeals, which folks are entitled to) are merely distractors, while reality now freely marches forward.

I certainly didn't say that wasn't the case now. However it is foolish to think this is the last word and there are no repercussions or consequences to YOUR union negotiating any old contract that the majority will vote in. All the 9th said is there is no DFR... yet. We all have to wait and see what happens next. And none of this says anything about disregarding Binding Arbitration. Yes you can try to negotiate a contract with DOH. Yes the company MIGHT agree to it. Yes you can vote it in. But after that, do you really think it's the end of the road with no more challenges? If believing that helps you sleep at night, then fine. But it is far from certain.

As you and many others have said the past, it isn't over until the fat lady sings. The 9th ruling is not the fat lady singing. It was one battle in an ongoing war. When a contract stands in place, with DOH with restrictions, and no more objections or court battles are left, and USAir operates with one joint contract and one seniority list, then we may look back at this event as a turning point. But then again it may also be looked back upon as just another roadblock to the Nic award.

When this is truly over, then we can look back and see which of the two sides was really victorious. Until then, all this talk about "Nic being dead" is a simple case of confirmation bias. (look it up if you need to.)

 

[Phoenix]

I certainly didn't say that wasn't the case now. However it is foolish to think this is the last word and there are no repercussions or consequences to YOUR union negotiating any old contract that the majority will vote in. All the 9th said is there is no DFR... yet. ...

Actually, the 9th acknowledged the union's duty to fairly represent the pilots.

The Nic was an internal union attempt that failed as is. The court acknowledged that ALPA was free to abandon Nic and that USAPA is equally free. The duty to fairly represent remains, but is not embodied in an ALPA policy or process. It is clear that any future possible court case on a USAPA breach of DFR will not be held to the standards of ALPA policies. ALPA, USAPA, or any other union's compliance with their Duty of Fair Representation is judged by standards superior to their own or other union policies.

Pilots can reject any participation with their union and patiently wait for what they perceive as their prime chance to pounce a lawsuit on USAPA once the CBA is ratified (if they actually find enough money and discontent when it is). Or they can participate civilly for very little effort and make a difference now.

 

[Black Swan]

What did you win? The right to equally represent the West pilots? You're at Square One, "Bro". It's only a matter of time before your violate the NIC Award and find yourself in another DFR.

The Judge has nothing to do with it. He and a jury of your peers found USAPA guilty. The 9th disgreed, but read their reasoning. (Hint) because you dont have a CBA that has altered the Nic....yet. When you do. D-F-R.

I think the reality check is coming with what you CANNOT do to the Binding Arbitration. Stand by. The company isnt going to give you DOH. Period.

Keep enjoying your substandard contract in the meantime.

It's foolish pride to celebrate a pipedream that you can effectively step on West pilots "Career Expectations", I know that means nothing to you. But the rest of the industry have seen how low the East will go to make themselves whole. Too bad you have no honor left.

NRBAGFY

You really need to read what crzpilot quoted. You keep missing the point I, and now the court are saying. USAPA is the successor body to ALPA. Not bound by ALPA. To carry an ALPA award forward would perpetuate the prior bargaining agent, which was REPLACED. Do you see where they are going? If you signed an agreement for a house with one agent, then not going to settlement on same house,terminated the first agent then hired another agent or bargaining agent for the house- you are not bound by the original agreement. You are free to offer a new price and any and all provisions you want. Unbound by the original agreement unsettled. You guys better read this and Baptiste and Wilder. Both are light years ahead of Leonides in the understanding of how things work with the RLA.

 

[Black Swan]

I certainly didn't say that wasn't the case now. However it is foolish to think this is the last word and there are no repercussions or consequences to YOUR union negotiating any old contract that the majority will vote in. All the 9th said is there is no DFR... yet. We all have to wait and see what happens next. And none of this says anything about disregarding Binding Arbitration. Yes you can try to negotiate a contract with DOH. Yes the company MIGHT agree to it. Yes you can vote it in. But after that, do you really think it's the end of the road with no more challenges? If believing that helps you sleep at night, then fine. But it is far from certain.

As you and many others have said the past, it isn't over until the fat lady sings. The 9th ruling is not the fat lady singing. It was one battle in an ongoing war. When a contract stands in place, with DOH with restrictions, and no more objections or court battles are left, and USAir operates with one joint contract and one seniority list, then we may look back at this event as a turning point. But then again it may also be looked back upon as just another roadblock to the Nic award.

When this is truly over, then we can look back and see which of the two sides was really victorious. Until then, all this talk about "Nic being dead" is a simple case of confirmation bias. (look it up if you need to.)

You guys are really missing what the court said. Read the part in RED. USAPA does not, not have to have the Nic in it. It has a duty to represent the west, yes. But the Nic does not have to be in it. The Nic is cause for the East pilots to sue USAPA for DFR if it went through with it, as it is absolutely contrary to USAPA constitution.