US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Have you read the RICO suit? Have you checked the list of names?

You do know that the two PHX are defendants in that RICO suit along with Eric Ferguson and a system board member. I tell you what you go ahead and bring it to the leadership that you want to deny the west their representation. See how that works out for you.

BTW could you point out what Eric Ferguson is accused of specifically? What heinous act does
Cleary think he performed? Take the time read through the charges and let us know what he did?

I also take offense at your use of the word thugs when referring to these individuals. There is no evidence and the charges have been dismissed by a federal judge in a NC court. So your continued use of that term is slanderous.

Nobody denies anybody their refusal to cooperate, along with your obvious denial of any reasonable cooperation draws conclusions on it's own merits, walks like a duck! MM!

 

[luvn737s]

[quote nam

The ONLY way for this episode to end and a new one to begin is if ALL the pilots come together, support USAPA's negotiations to get a new CBA.

[/quote]

No, USAPA has poisoned the well. The only solution lies in a representation election that removes USAPA as CBA and replaces it with either one that is formed with mutual input and adheres to previous legal obligations (NIC) or eliminates all union representation for a time.

I hope the east pilots are not satisfied with what USAPA has provided as a result of this appeal. Because after the hangover wears off, they will see that they have achieved nothing but stoking the acrimony between the two pilot groups.

As for calls for reconciliation, that is as much a pipe dream as DOH. Cleary steadfastly refuses to come to Phoenix and directly address the west pilots in face-to-face open forum. Instead he pretends they don't exist, except for multiple Sec 29 threats. The fact that east pilot permit and even encourage this is proof that reconciliation will never occur.

Johnny Mac needed no crystal ball to predict that there would never be labor peace at US.

 

[cleardirect]

Prosecute the case. Then you can have specifics. The "John Does" is basically a place holder for individuals whose names come into the formula after the suit is filed. Since many of the AWAPPA folks were also AOL folks, they are, to most of us, one-in-the-same.

If folks didn't fear their past actions were illegal, this would be a nonissue. There, I rest my case.

So it is not targeted as you say it is a fishing trip looking for others to attack.

So far usapa has spent about $250,000.00 to get dismissed. The defendants have probably spent something close to that to have the case dropped. You don't have to be guilty to to fear a law suit. Law suits are bad even when someone is innocent as in this case.

So when the 4 circuit dismisses the appeal will you admit that usapa was wrong? Would you support paying the defendant their legal fees because they were wrongly accused?

 

[cleardirect]

Nobody denies anybody their refusal to cooperate, along with your obvious denial of any reasonable cooperation draws conclusions on it's own merits, walks like a duck! MM!

WHAT?????

JAA dude it is to early to be hitting the bottle.

 

[767jetz]

Yes, let's have two more ALPA worshippers come to the rescue of the west. It is over. The Nic is dead. New bargaining agent. Wake carried you as far as he could.

Yes, another emotional and useless response to a valid question. Oh well. Nothing new here.

 

[ROACLT]

No, USAPA has poisoned the well. The only solution lies in a representation election that removes USAPA as CBA and replaces it with either one that is formed with mutual input and adheres to previous legal obligations (NIC) or eliminates all union representation for a time.

I hope the east pilots are not satisfied with what USAPA has provided as a result of this appeal. Because after the hangover wears off, they will see that they have achieved nothing but stoking the acrimony between the two pilot groups.

As for calls for reconciliation, that is as much a pipe dream as DOH. Cleary steadfastly refuses to come to Phoenix and directly address the west pilots in face-to-face open forum. Instead he pretends they don't exist, except for multiple Sec 29 threats. The fact that east pilot permit and even encourage this is proof that reconciliation will never occur.

Johnny Mac needed no crystal ball to predict that there would never be labor peace at US.

If anything, this result strengthened the East pilots resolve and support of their union. If they receive any portion of pay restoration under LOA 93, the West pilots might want to be very happy with the C & R's that currently exist in their proposal and might want to hop on board now and seek to enhance them and move things forward.

 

[Black Swan]

The USAPA Pipe dream lives on !!!!! Dudes. You're not going to get DOH. You continue to remain in the dark and chose not to inform yourself of reality. Your clueless leader F.O. Cleary wrongly stated in his update that Usapa is free to get any seniority they want. He could not be more wrong.

In the meantime, keep slapping each other on the back and drinking the Kool-aid. You really won nothing. Square 1. Nothing has changed, As soon as it does, you will be back defending yourself from a DFR. It doesn't matter what court or what judge. You will lose. Read to Nic. Read the Ruling.

One day closer to your retirement party. Enjoy the LOA 93. BTW. Jetblue E190 Captains still make more than East A320 Capts. But hey, whos counting?

USAPA is a failed attempt at stealing seniority.

NRBAGFY

Freebird. First of all, we did win something. We got the frivolous Addington issue over with. Secondly, this was a clear definition going forward with regard to what a judge can, and more importantly, cannot do. They cannot meddle in internal union issues. Neither can the company. The DFR issue is not going to come again. You have a new bargaining agent, and it has NOTHING to do with what ALPA has done. How can you hold USAPA to any ALPA agreement? You can't. Try it again. You will find it will be even harder than ever, especially when everybody saw what Wake did. Those law clerks in San Fran must have been shaking their heads, just like we told you all along. Leonides is absolutely in the dark with regard to the RLA. This is no pipe dream. You just got a reality check as to what really can and cannot be done with unions. Wake was absolutely out of his league with the RLA. The company knows where they stand. They are smart on this. They know it is USAPA, not ALPA. That is why they keep it on the shelf. I give them a lot of credit for knowing that much. If you guys come after this again, you better be ready to pay.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

WHAT?????

JAA dude it is to early to be hitting the bottle.

Then don't do it MV!

 

[Black Swan]

Yes, another emotional and useless response to a valid question. Oh well. Nothing new here.

You missed it too Jetzzz. I saw you asking when the damages trial starts. Figure it yet? You and your ALPA friends have no idea about the RLA. Wake was an embarasment and you couldn't rationally figure it out. The entire trial was a perfect example of cronyism at its' best. Who's daddy was Wakes buddy at the country club?Read about Bybee also. Between Reagan and Bush, Arizona got some weird judges.

 

[767jetz]

An observation that seems obvious to me (and I'm surprised no one really has commented on this yet) is that throughout all of USAPA's failures and setbacks in court during this process, the continuous mantra has gone something like this...

"You have won nothing. We will keep appealing and filing suits. You have your lottery ticket but can't cash it in since there is no contract. The East resolve will outlast you. Until a contract is voted in Nic means nothing."

Now one small victory later and the all we hear is "We won! Nic is dead! get over it and move on."

Seems to me that until you actually have a contract voted in that does not include Nic, AND it is actually in place and has not been stopped from being implemented by some court that decides that USAPA has violated some other facet of their responsibility, there really is no victory. Just another step along the road to final resolution.

I would venture a guess that the West resolve has also been strengthened, and court challenges will follow. Until the fruit has been harvested, delivered to the table, and is being consumed, all you have is another branch on the tree. Neither side has victory until a single seniority list exists, with a joint contract, and all legal avenues for both sides have been exhausted or at least abandoned.

Which sounds a lot like you are back to where you were... with no clear or definitive word on where, when, or how this will end. Only predictions from both sides.

Let's see. We have:
- New representational election
- Case being heard by the full 9th
- Company not agreeing to go back on it's original acceptance of the Nic award for fear of liability
- Company agreeing to any list USAPA wants but with concessions so deep it would make LOA 93 look good
- New contract implemented as USAPA supporter predict, but case becoming ripe
- USAPA fails to negotiate in good faith with west interests and charged with DFR violation
- Contract passes with DOH with restrictions, West gets injunction preventing implementation while new trial occurs
- Contract passes and west is actually not hurt as much as they thought. Decides to live with it and move on.
- Contract passes with DOH with restrictions and USAPA still gets nailed for ignoring Final and Binding Arbitration.

The list goes on and on. Sounds like way too many variables to break open the champagne on either side.

PS. I will add that it seems USAPA has avoided a damages trial for the time being. So in that it can certainly be seen as a victory at this point in time.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

So it is not targeted as you say it is a fishing trip looking for others to attack.

So far usapa has spent about $250,000.00 to get dismissed. The defendants have probably spent something close to that to have the case dropped. You don't have to be guilty to to fear a law suit. Law suits are bad even when someone is innocent as in this case.

So when the 4 circuit dismisses the appeal will you admit that usapa was wrong? Would you support paying the defendant their legal fees because they were wrongly accused?

PEANUTS, you are correct even when USAPA was innocent lawsuits are BAD! Maybe you should try being the solution and not the court bearing problem! MM PS Your BOTTLE comment is as immature as well look in the mirror! MM!

 

[Phoenix]

...
The list goes on and on. Sounds like way too many variables to break open the champagne on either side.

Despite vigorous protestations to the contrary, our union, and only our union, is free to negotiate the CBA that we will vote on. Everything else that people are chasing (even appeals, which folks are entitled to) are merely distractors, while reality now freely marches forward.

Each pilot can choose to use their time whining, celebrating, or petitioning our union that is freely negotiating our next vote.

Sure, try to get a new union (for obvious reasons, duh, the elected representative is the representative), or petition the current union. Whatever. The fact is that the next milestone will occur as a result of the next vote, whatever it is.

 

[Black Swan]

An observation that seems obvious to me (and I'm surprised no one really has commented on this yet) is that throughout all of USAPA's failures and setbacks in court during this process, the continuous mantra has gone something like this...

"You have won nothing. We will keep appealing and filing suits. You have your lottery ticket but can't cash it in since there is no contract. The East resolve will outlast you. Until a contract is voted in Nic means nothing."

Now one small victory later and the all we hear is "We won! Nic is dead! get over it and move on."

Seems to me that until you actually have a contract voted in that does not include Nic, AND it is actually in place and has not been stopped from being implemented by some court that decides that USAPA has violated some other facet of their responsibility, there really is no victory. Just another step along the road to final resolution.

I would venture a guess that the West resolve has also been strengthened, and court challenges will follow. Until the fruit has been harvested, delivered to the table, and is being consumed, all you have is another branch on the tree. Neither side has victory until a single seniority list exists, with a joint contract, and all legal avenues for both sides have been exhausted or at least abandoned.

Which sounds a lot like you are back to where you were... with no clear or definitive word on where, when, or how this will end. Only predictions from both sides.

Let's see. We have:
- New representational election
- Case being heard by the full 9th
- Company not agreeing to go back on it's original acceptance of the Nic award for fear of liability
- Company agreeing to any list USAPA wants but with concessions so deep it would make LOA 93 look good
- New contract implemented as USAPA supporter predict, but case becoming ripe
- USAPA fails to negotiate in good faith with west interests and charged with DFR violation
- Contract passes with DOH with restrictions, West gets injunction preventing implementation while new trial occurs
- Contract passes and west is actually not hurt as much as they thought. Decides to live with it and move on.
- Contract passes with DOH with restrictions and USAPA still gets nailed for ignoring Final and Binding Arbitration.

The list goes on and on. Sounds like way too many variables to break open the champagne on either side.

PS. I will add that it seems USAPA has avoided a damages trial for the time being. So in that it can certainly be seen as a victory at this point in time.

"Through all of USAPA's setbacks in court?" What setbacks? This was a win. " USAPA fails to negotiate in good faith.............. charged with DFR violation." Easy to charge. difficult to prove. I think USAPA has avoided damages all the way around, not for the time being.

 

[Black Swan]

Wait till you see the MDA issue coming due. Things are getting mighty interesting for the MDA guys. Be patient..........

 

[Phoenix]

..Judge Bybee, Dissenting..:

Yes. It was decided by a vote. And no doubt, he won't be the last dissenter. Many more votes in the future will have their dissenters too.