US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

Haven't posted here in a long time...but I'd like to pose a question to the "west" pilot's that populate this board.

Maybe a simplistic history, but here goes. Negotiations for a merged list....no agreement. Goes to arbitration, arbitration ruling. Not liked by one side....new union (for many reasons), no implementation of arbitration due to contract requirements. Lawsuit filed for the non-implementation. Union found at fault. Union files appeal. Lower court judgment ruled "not ripe". Now, probably an appeal of the 9th ruling.

So far, both "sides" have pursued legal and just actions to have their agenda prevail. Both sides have properly tried to represent the interests of their folks. If ALL these actions were not taken, then I would say someone was deficient in the protection of their side's interests.

We are close to and end of possible "process". En banc, Scotus, but the end is possibly near. So here is the question.....if the state of the seniority integration remains without the NIC, and all available legal avenues exhausted......What then? DOH will never fly,even among many East folks. NIC will never be viable either (at least to the East).

IS there some middle ground that is achievable????? Or do we just flounder around until a merger and the process is maybe more in favor of some other entity?

We found middle ground once, it was called arbitration. So what the next round would be is the west giving up even more. From the Nicolau what is the east willing to give? I have never seen anyone even suggest anything that the east might be willing to give up. Fencing the west is not a give it is a take.

No there is no middle ground. It is up to usapa (the east) to negotiate with the company to get a contract. The west has no authority or ability to negotiate with usapa (the east) to find middle ground now. USAPA took that away with the election. We are along for the ride in this mess until usapa performs. It is up to usapa (the east) to decide what they consider fair for the west. When we finally have a contract then the west will take usapa back to court if it does not contain the Nicolau as written. That means an immediate injunction as soon as it is ratified.

So yes we are going to flounder around until usapa (the east) decides that what they agreed to during arbitration is implemented. Remembering that the entire contract must be fait to all parties not just seniority.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So far, both "sides" have pursued legal and just actions to have their agenda prevail. Both sides have properly tried to represent the interests of their folks.

The problem is that USAPA's job is to represent all the pilots - not just "it's side." I think it's obvious that the West pilots would say that USAPA hasn't done that.

IS there some middle ground that is achievable?????

There is no legal entity authorized to represent the West pilots - USAPA is it. Which is why the 9th said that USAPA had to represent both sides fairly, under threat of invoking an unquestionably ripe DFR suit. So who is supposed to take part in finding this middle ground?

Jim

 

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

Courts don't rule on fairness they rule on law.

A court does not decide if it was fair that you killed someone just that you pulled the trigger.

The next case will not be a redo of arbitration. No federal court has that authority.

You do know what dFr stands for, don't you?

 

[Barrister]

Why is it that you guys are obsessed with ALPA? Really obsessed. I am a line pilot at Delta, I fly 767's, just got back from Milan Sunday (nice clothes, the calzone was just OK). My next trip is in a week it's a domestic 3 day with a double SEA layover. If you get an opinion that contradicts your wacky theories on life, then you try to attack the individual. I am sure that this is not what National ALPA thinks, but I hope beyond hope that you guys do not come back to ALPA. I know that is your wish too. When you were in ALPA, you spent like drunken sailors (apparently still spending like drunken sailors), and your union now is creating a giant liability by messing with an established seniority list. I personally don't want to have to pay for your lunacy. So please, do not come back to ALPA, let your own pilots pay for your fool's quest. I don't know how to be any clearer than that.

So no matter how many times you try to make up things about me or the other people on this board, they are not true. I have no position at ALPA and don't want one. You guys seem almost permanently detached from reality, so I am sure you will just make up a new story that has no bearing on the facts. Oh well.

I take it that your view on airline life is from the perspective of someone
who is senior to a NW guy who has 4 years longer than you....
yet you are senior....Do I have this correct!!!! No wonder you
"just don't think about it that much"

NPJB

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The problem is that USAPA's job is to represent all the pilots - not just "it's side." I think it's obvious that the West pilots would say that USAPA hasn't done that.[\quote]

And they'd be wrong. USAPA has represented their interest in MANY ways, including grievances and contract interpretation, not to mention contract negotiations.

There is no legal entity authorized to represent the West pilots - USAPA is it. Which is why the 9th said that USAPA had to represent both sides fairly, under threat of invoking an unquestionably ripe DFR suit. So who is supposed to take part in finding this middle ground?

Jim

There IS a legal entity representing the West, USAPA. What did you mean "no legal entity"? I can tell you, from a career perspective, any formula for seniority which includes DOH in some form will be better for BOTH sides. How would they like it if in 20 years, when all the present East side guys are gone, the company merges with some upstart. How would the present west guys like, at that stage of their career, to have to fight to keep their jobs and career potential? Instead they, and a few leftover Piedmant guys from the 1988 merger that didn't get to steal seats from older, more experienced and senior USAir guys, just keep up the mantra: "me, me, me, now, now, now".

Jim, sorry you didn't get to leapfrog into better seniority at the expense of guys that had been working here much longer than you. Your bitterness toward a fair system shows. Actually, I'm not sorry. I was just trying to calm you down.

 

[Barrister]

ALPA should have a clearly defined merger policy. One that includes numbers and a general set of C&Rs, so that you could figure where you'd be in any merger from just the two lists. Sending your "dirty laundry" to an arbitrator that may or may not fully understand all the implications of seniority and airline working conditions is STUPID!

Any merger policy that contains unquantifable concepts like "career expectations" and "company financial condition", this day in age, are not worth the paper they are printed on. They are just attempts around using DOH as the solution.

ALPA SUX! Now go away!

You just hit on an important point. ALPA merger policy IN NO WAY considers
the financial strenth of the respective companies yet a reading of NIC clearly
shows that he gave GREAT WEIGHT to the financials.........Then the merger
took place.....then the financials came out....then we saw where the power
was in this POS. NOT IN THOSE HIGH YIELDS IN PHX AND LAS.
The East operation was printing money until the fuel went haywire. Yea, I know
a cheap accounting trick.

NPJB

 

[Barrister]

I don't know what you think that is, but that is a judicial shot across the bow. Judges don't make belligerent statements like pilots on webboards do, they speak in muted tones. That is about as frank as you will ever get from a judge or judges. They are warning you.

Keep reading the part about the NIC....want me to read it to you???.

NPJB

 

[Barrister]

...and yet the DAL/NWA merger is considered the best, using the same merger policy you used. What is the difference? Different union? Nope. Different people running the MEC's? Yes. Is it ALPA's problem or is it your problem?

OK OJ, let me give you some perspective. Lets say DAL files for bankruptcy again.
And this time Jet Blue and Spirit pool there money and buy you. Their pilots demand
their relative position and and by the way....they just ordered 100 787s and 100 330s.
prior to the announced buyout. What sir, is your position now. Inquiring minds want to know???

NPJB

 

[cleardirect]

OK OJ, let me give you some perspective. Lets say DAL files for bankruptcy again.
And this time Jet Blue and Spirit pool there money and buy you. Their pilots demand
their relative position and and by the way....they just ordered 100 787s and 100 330s.
prior to the announced buyout. What sir, is your position now. Inquiring minds want to know???

NPJB

You guys are really reaching for straws now,

If they just ordered 200 WB what would they possibly want with DAL? If they just committed 200 aircraft worth of money they would not have any money to do a deal.

How about sticking with our situation.

So you are admitting that we bought you?

 

[Barrister]

You guys are really reaching for straws now,

If they just ordered 200 WB what would they possibly want with DAL? If they just committed 200 aircraft worth of money they would not have any money to do a deal.

How about sticking with our situation.

So you are admitting that we bought you?

Debating with you has now turned into a schoolyard exercise. And no "WE" didn't buy anything!!!
Never responding to you again unless you grow up.

NPJB

 

[oldiebutgoody]

...So you are admitting that we bought you?

If he admitted that he'd be wrong.

 

[aquagreen73s]

We are close to and end of possible "process". En banc, Scotus, but the end is possibly near. So here is the question.....if the state of the seniority integration remains without the NIC, and all available legal avenues exhausted......What then? DOH will never fly,even among many East folks. NIC will never be viable either (at least to the East).

IS there some middle ground that is achievable????? Or do we just flounder around until a merger and the process is maybe more in favor of some other entity?

Good question. The answer, however, is not what East or West think is fair anymore. We all had that benefit removed when USAPA was elected. The seniority is now a black and white issue that will be decided by another jury (assuming USAPA produces a contract without the Nicolau). USAPA is as free as ALPA was to negotiate. That's what the 9th said in plain words. ALPA was "free" to disregard the Nic just as anyone is "free" to default on a mortgage or breach a contract. The backside are that there are consequences and the majority has decided they'll leave it up to the collective bargaining agent that stepped into the shoes of ALPA to decide risk/reward of negotiating something other than what the TA calls for. The west will sue on a DFR again if anything less than the Nic is agreed to with the company. Then it will be up to USAPA to make the case again before another jury that what they did was fair. Good luck with that. It took nine citizens from all walks of life a little over two hours to unanimously agree the last time, and that speaks volumes.

 

[233KILLS]

Debating with you has now turned into a schoolyard exercise. And no "WE" didn't but anything!!!
Never responding to you again unless you grow up.

NPJB

CD I think Barrister took his toys and went home.

 

[oscarjazz]

Haven't posted here in a long time...but I'd like to pose a question to the "west" pilot's that populate this board.

Maybe a simplistic history, but here goes. Negotiations for a merged list....no agreement. Goes to arbitration, arbitration ruling. Not liked by one side....new union (for many reasons), no implementation of arbitration due to contract requirements. Lawsuit filed for the non-implementation. Union found at fault. Union files appeal. Lower court judgment ruled "not ripe". Now, probably an appeal of the 9th ruling.

So far, both "sides" have pursued legal and just actions to have their agenda prevail. Both sides have properly tried to represent the interests of their folks. If ALL these actions were not taken, then I would say someone was deficient in the protection of their side's interests.

We are close to and end of possible "process". En banc, Scotus, but the end is possibly near. So here is the question.....if the state of the seniority integration remains without the NIC, and all available legal avenues exhausted......What then? DOH will never fly,even among many East folks. NIC will never be viable either (at least to the East).

IS there some middle ground that is achievable????? Or do we just flounder around until a merger and the process is maybe more in favor of some other entity?

Here is one suggestion. Move about 250 West pilots up into the 500 East pilots at the top of the list. Add another 500 East pilots into the integration ratios. Stretch out the remaining West pilots to match up with the 500. Add C+R that any East pilot that was furloughed as of the integration date, gets furloughed before any West pilot. A little bit of gain and pain for both sides.

 

[233KILLS]

Why has usapa not filed the final paper with the arbitrator in the loa93 case? The 90 day clock has not started boys and girls.