US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

Go back and read the ruling, the footnotes and please educate yourself on the broadness of breach of "good faith", a definition Wake denied the jury from hearing in the circuit trial.

I think itwould seem to USAPA supporters that the ability of their attorney's to understand the law and a union's right to bargain without interference was just validated and the confidence level is higher than ever. I think it will be only strengthened when you realize and hear how your company's management weighs in on the issue.

This ruling blew the case and the way the trail went down in Phoenix out of the water and only by addressing the jurisdictional aspect of the case. One could infer, if Wake was wrong on complaint 1, the other 3 or 4 complaints in USAPA appeal likely had merit too. They weren't addressed because, there was no legal jurisdiction for this case to be heard in the first place but I wouldn't be to confident on anything that came out of the trial before Wake.

The 9th Circuit is clear that USAPA is able to bargain without interference and their only requirement is to bargain in good faith for all of its members. Again, before you waste any more money, I would study up on that issue as it relates to union responsibility.

There is a reason the majority decision referred to the Nicalou award as nothing more that a step in an internal union process to achieve a "seniority proposal". One that it correctly states, ALPA could not complete or reconcile the parties over and tried itself to modify.

Unions have broad discretion in interpreting their own policies and by-laws and a very broad latitude when it comes to acting reasonably in the context of needing to act for "collective interest."

You absolutely have a concrete understanding of the issues. No matter which side you take, you have to consider the consider the concept of INTERNAL UNION PROCESS. Both sides of the argument.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The NIC was never on trial and never will be. A dfr against usapa was and ripeness was the issue.

Dumb question and dumb answer is that friday from the 9th doesn't change anything in regard to the NIC.

Please call the vp of labor at lcc to confirm. I have and it's clear as cleary....lcc accepted the NIC and will use it going forward with a joint contract or else lcc will be sued along with any cba/usapa that attempts to weasel out of final and binding arbitration.

Even Marty Harper, Esq would laugh at that one. He's laughing all the way to the bank now!

And I finally agee with you on something. That is a dumb answer, since it's WRONG!

 

[luvthe9]

I would love to hear why Addington was even filed when it was. Why? Did not ONE of your legal advisors, especially Ferguson ask the big question. I quote the 9th- "WHERE IS THE DAMAGE?" Either way, it was a landmark error. You filed your own death warrant on the Nic. You got the 9th to validate the death. Unbelievable!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I would love to hear why Addington was even filed when it was. Why? Did not ONE of your legal advisors, especially Ferguson ask the big question. I quote the 9th- "WHERE IS THE DAMAGE?" Either way, it was a landmark error. You filed your own death warrant on the Nic. You got the 9th to validate the death. Unbelievable!

Actually, frivolous lawsuits are filed everyday. What blows me away is how far this one got, and all because of one judge. This one should have been gone after the first motion.

Judge Wake should have to pay the court costs out of his pocket.

 

[nic4us]

I would love to hear why Addington was even filed when it was. Why? Did not ONE of your legal advisors, especially Ferguson ask the big question. I quote the 9th- "WHERE IS THE DAMAGE?" Either way, it was a landmark error. You filed your own death warrant on the Nic. You got the 9th to validate the death. Unbelievable!

You have already been told why, but once again refuse to see the reality of the situation, so I will tell you again.

The West was faced with do we file now and lose on ripeness or do we wait and lose because the statute of limitations has passed. We filed, we won, you appealed, the 9th said not ripe, but warned you that as soon as you treat the West unfairly (i.e. pass a contract with any thing other than the Nic) it will be ripe and you face the consequences of a certainly ripe DFR.

The 9th upheld Dr. Jacobs long pause. You cannot have it both ways, it cannot be forever not ripe and at the same time running the clock on timeliness. Bybee and Wake said ripe. Graber and Tashima said not ripe, but will be timely once you get a non-Nic contract passed. We will first exhaust our en banc and Scotus avenues with the current litigation. Then we will wait for you to get a DOH contract passed, sue, win, and not have to fear the arguement that contract breaking, reneging, weasels like Seeham and usapa would surely advance, that we were untimely.

It is now locked and loaded, either present the Nic in any tentative agreement, or get a DOH contract passed and lose the coming DFR trial.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Your dream of being able to steal someone else's job just won't go away, will it?

 

[767jetz]

In fact if the East used the NIC, they would clearly be in violation of its Constitutional & By-Laws and could be sued by any or all East pilots or West pilots for that matter, because the Constitution protects their DOH interest too.

Perhaps in the future. But not retroactively. This is still where there is much disagreement. To many, past agreements can not be "un-done" simply by changing names. Your C&BL's are fine going forward but do not erase what's already been agreed to.

Of course we all know that there are strong opinions on both sides of that issue, and we have YEARS of debate just on this forum alone to prove it. But until there is actually a contract in place and US is operating with one seniority list, with no more challenges on the horizon, until THEN, you are all still in limbo.

Move the ball down the field, see where things go, and maybe we'll have new things to debate. In the mean time this is over 80 pages of the same old argument. This dispute will be over eventually. But my money is on years, not months of the status quo. Ironically, I think the comments of many here since Friday have only ensured a long battle from the west.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Perhaps in the future. But not retroactively. This is still where there is much disagreement. To many, past agreements can not be "un-done" simply by changing names. Your C&BL's are fine going forward but do not erase what's already been agreed to.

Of course we all know that there are strong opinions on both sides of that issue, and we have YEARS of debate just on this forum alone to prove it. But until there is actually a contract in place and US is operating with one seniority list, with no more challenges on the horizon, until THEN, you are all still in limbo.

Move the ball down the field, see where things go, and maybe we'll have new things to debate. In the mean time this is over 80 pages of the same old argument. This dispute will be over eventually. But my money is on years, not months of the status quo. Ironically, I think the comments of many here since Friday have only ensured a long battle from the west.

This is a HUGE win for ALPA pilots and union people everywhere. It means that if the union does not represent its members' interests adequately it can be replaced; and that the new CBA can negotiate the entire contract using its own C&BLs, not bound by internal methodology of past representatives. I'll bet that in the not-too-distant future we'll be hearing about a new effort at ALPA to revise the merger policy, getting rid of abstractions and making it fair and predictable for all.

You can thank us later.

 

[Schultz]

WOW.....but...NO....you're not correct.........

Do us all a favor and call Al Hemenway vp labor relations lcc and ask him what list the company has accepted and will use going forward. The 9th ruling on ripeness does not change this. I have his number if interested. It's really that simple.

The company has remained neutral on the question of seniority. And now they are going to pick sides. I don't think so.

 

[kubotapilot]

Hi Nic,

Perhaps its the tears getting in your eyes and preventing you from seeing reality. What you are missing regarding the 9th ruling is that USAPA doesn't have to use the "Nic". There is NO language in the ruling saying "anything other than the Nic" , "treat the west unfairly" etc...

The 9th was very clear about a union formulating its seniority list and the courts NOT meddling in internal union affairs. They were also very clear that the Nic arbitration was a product of ALPA, never ratified as part of a new CBA. This pretty much shoots down the theory that the NIC is set in stone. The abomination that Nic cooked up is DEAD.

Anyone can file a DFR at any time. Your DFR was thrown out by the 9th. The 9th affirmed you may file again when your particular issue is ripe. Other posters have said the east may file a dfr if the NIC is implemented, this is also a possibility.

I sure hope you guys get a big raise or win the Powerball because that's what it will take to fund your continuance of what is basically a frivolous lawsuit!

Not IF, but WHEN a CBA is signed and it has a seniority list contrived from ANY reasonable means, any party will have the opportunity to file a DFR suit and it will be ripe.

You have already been told why, but once again refuse to see the reality of the situation, so I will tell you again.

The West was faced with do we file now and lose on ripeness or do we wait and lose because the statute of limitations has passed. We filed, we won, you appealed, the 9th said not ripe, but warned you that as soon as you treat the West unfairly (i.e. pass a contract with any thing other than the Nic) it will be ripe and you face the consequences of a certainly ripe DFR.

The 9th upheld Dr. Jacobs long pause. You cannot have it both ways, it cannot be forever not ripe and at the same time running the clock on timeliness. Bybee and Wake said ripe. Graber and Tashima said not ripe, but will be timely once you get a non-Nic contract passed. We will first exhaust our en banc and Scotus avenues with the current litigation. Then we will wait for you to get a DOH contract passed, sue, win, and not have to fear the arguement that contract breaking, reneging, weasels like Seeham and usapa would surely advance, that we were untimely.

It is now locked and loaded, either present the Nic in any tentative agreement, or get a DOH contract passed and lose the coming DFR trial.

 

[767jetz]

You don't really think that a 25 year pilot at United or American, for that matter, would allow a pilot with half as much experience ahead of them in seniority, do you? If you do, you haven't been in this industry for long.

You don't think for a minute that any pilot at United or American or Delta would allow you to have DOH in a future merger do you? Let's see... we all know AA's history with TWA, Reno, and others. Delta just merged and became the biggest airline in the world without a DOH integration. (And most of them are relatively satisfied with the results.) Watch what happens when UA completes a similar integration without DOH and leapfrogs DL.

Now, let's project into the future for a moment. Whether AA decides to join the merger party soon, or a few years down the road UA or DL decide to merge with US. DL is hiring. UA will eventually be bringing back furloughs after the merger. Here comes USAPA with their chest pounding and "we have DOH, we deserve DOH, we even avoided arbitration and used our majority status to negotiate DOH!" ... OOOOPS! Did we just say that?

Here's your answer form AA, DL, or UA pilots: "Welcome back to ALPA! (or welcome to APA!) Here's is what you'll get and like it. And if this ends up in arbitration and we don't get what we want, that's OK. We'll just negotiate what we want with the company. By the way, we have over 10,000 pilots. How many do you guys have?"

Poetic justice.

If you do get DOH through negotiation (which still remains to be seen), enjoy it while it lasts. Because it will only last until the West goes back to court or the next merger, if you survive that long.

 

[AWE Dog]

The NIC was never on trial and never will be. A dfr against usapa was and ripeness was the issue.

Dumb question and dumb answer is that friday from the 9th doesn't change anything in regard to the NIC.

Please call the vp of labor at lcc to confirm. I have and it's clear as cleary....lcc accepted the NIC and will use it going forward with a joint contract or else lcc will be sued along with any cba/usapa that attempts to weasel out of final and binding arbitration.

Remember that Bogus injunction that was placed on USAPA and the company? The company had to say Nic was the list.. Not now. As far as Nic never being on trial , when your case is ripe you can do your DFR thing. How are you going to prove you were harmed without putting the Nic on trial?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You don't think for a minute that any pilot at United or American or Delta would allow you to have DOH in a future merger do you? Let's see... we all know AA's history with TWA, Reno, and others. Delta just merged and became the biggest airline in the world without a DOH integration. (And most of them are relatively satisfied with the results.) Watch what happens when UA completes a similar integration without DOH and leapfrogs DL.

Now, let's project into the future for a moment. Whether AA decides to join the merger party soon, or a few years down the road UA or DL decide to merge with US. DL is hiring. UA will eventually be bringing back furloughs after the merger. Here comes USAPA with their chest pounding and "we have DOH, we deserve DOH, we even avoided arbitration and used our majority status to negotiate DOH!" ... OOOOPS! Did we just say that?

Here's your answer form AA, DL, or UA pilots: "Welcome back to ALPA! (or welcome to APA!) Here's is what you'll get and like it. And if this ends up in arbitration and we don't get what we want, that's OK. We'll just negotiate what we want with the company. By the way, we have over 10,000 pilots. How many do you guys have?"

Poetic justice.

If you do get DOH through negotiation (which still remains to be seen), enjoy it while it lasts. Because it will only last until the West goes back to court or the next merger, if you survive that long.

They won't have a choice of what they accept. There's a federal law now that will determine seniority. The rest of your argument doesn't work, either.

Getting out of ALPA was the smartest thing this pilot group has ever done.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Remember that Bogus injunction that was placed on USAPA and the company? The company had to say Nic was the list.. Not now. As far as Nic never being on trial , when your case is ripe you can do your DFR thing. How are you going to prove you were harmed without putting the Nic on trial?

If I remember correctly, that testimony by Mr. Hemenway was given in response to an attempt by the West lawyers to drag the company into the DFR lawsuit. Due to the injunction, there was no other answer available, and it let the company off the hook. That all changed last Friday.

 

[AWE Dog]

You don't think for a minute that any pilot at United or American or Delta would allow you to have DOH in a future merger do you? Let's see... we all know AA's history with TWA, Reno, and others. Delta just merged and became the biggest airline in the world without a DOH integration. (And most of them are relatively satisfied with the results.) Watch what happens when UA completes a similar integration without DOH and leapfrogs DL.

Now, let's project into the future for a moment. Whether AA decides to join the merger party soon, or a few years down the road UA or DL decide to merge with US. DL is hiring. UA will eventually be bringing back furloughs after the merger. Here comes USAPA with their chest pounding and "we have DOH, we deserve DOH, we even avoided arbitration and used our majority status to negotiate DOH!" ... OOOOPS! Did we just say that?

Here's your answer form AA, DL, or UA pilots: "Welcome back to ALPA! (or welcome to APA!) Here's is what you'll get and like it. And if this ends up in arbitration and we don't get what we want, that's OK. We'll just negotiate what we want with the company. By the way, we have over 10,000 pilots. How many do you guys have?"

Poetic justice.

If you do get DOH through negotiation (which still remains to be seen), enjoy it while it lasts. Because it will only last until the West goes back to court or the next merger, if you survive that long.

Can you say Allegheny/Mohawk?