US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

Wow, you east posters really need to take a deep breath before we end up finding you like a rock star who took auto erotic asphycsiation just a little too far.

Best heed your own advice. Get over it.

It will be dne when the Nic is in a ratified contract at LCC. Hope you are still around to see that day.

Oh...by the way...just wanted to let you know that after almost five years from the time America West Airlines aquired the bankrupt Usairways, my paycheck no longer has the AWA logo on it, and for the first time my bank reported a direct deposit from USAirways, guess we are all one big happy family now.

Tell us more about the erotic asphyxiation. It is the best thing you guys have posted yet.

 

[Black Swan]

USAPA dodged a bullet on Friday, I am sure the west has more coming. Some on here cant figure that out. USAPA hasn't accomplished anything Bradfrod promised except running the clock. That could have happened under ALPA or any other union for that matter. LOA 93 will be here for quite a while.

What bullet? You guys fire blanks. Sorry about the millions you didn't get in damages. That was going to be a hell of a party!

 

[nycbusdriver]

You are missing what I am saying.

As of right now Judge Wake doesn't have the jurisdiction to sign a dismissal. The jurisdiction is still with the Ninth Circuit until it rules on any request for an en banc hearing as long as one is timely filed by the Addington plaintiffs. If the Ninth Circuit denies an en banc request there would still be time then allowed for a writ of certiorari to be filed and decided by the SCOTUS.

As for Oldie's thoughts on whether or not the Ninth will grant an en banc review, I place the odds that they will at over 50%. If the decision had been unanimously then I would have cut those odds to under 25%.

Man, what a spin machine! We had a word in the military called quibbling which describes the straws you seek to grasp.

First, you gave little chance to the 9th taking the appeal. Wrong.

Then you give 50-50 to the enbanc review. I'm not certain the makeup of the court, but the 9th is considered a liberal one. Given that the two Democrat appointees reversed Wake, and the Republican dissented, I would rethink those odds.

And, you were certain that Wake was absolutely correct and that an eventual writ of certiorari by the Supremes would be all but unthinkable because...of course...Wake was right. Now that your brilliant legal skills have been proven wrong, it sounds like the writ is all but certain.

Can I get your your business card? I want to be sure I never accidentally hire your firm to represent me.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just like he opened a PHX base for east pilots to accomplish the same thing over these past four years?

Ah, there is a difference. The East pilots are more costly than the West pilots despite LOA93. So why would Parker open an East base in PHX if it increased costs. Besides, there is that little min block hour thing. On the other hand, Parker could open a West base in PHL furlough top of scale East pilots (East is over the min block hour), recall 2-3 year pay scale West pilots and save money.

Jim

 

[Tiger 1050]

How about DOH with a one-way fence: West pilots may bid any East vacancy based on DOH. East pilots will be fenced out of PHX for 10 years, starting with the new contract, except East pilots can bid a PHX vacancy at the bottom of the list, behind the most junior West pilot.

Westies: We got massive retirements coming up. They don't start in 30 months. More like next summer. We're getting old. Between medicals, unfortunate deaths and older pilots' needs to start using their 1500 hours of sick leave, the company can't maintain the current staffing. Once retirements/medicals start, we're going out at 5 times your rate. You'll have control of the union in 3 years. Patience, grasshoppers.

Meanwhile, USAPA, time to retire the RICO. Holding it over the west's heads has served its purpose.

I think it's time for the west pilots to seriously consider something like this. I, frankly, cannot see a lot of financial support for another DFR suit. I believe the west's best course now is to bury the hatchet and try to participate in the benefits of the upcoming retirements.

 

[Black Swan]

I think it's time for the west pilots to seriously consider something like this. I, frankly, cannot see a lot of financial support for another DFR suit. I believe the west's best course now is to bury the hatchet and try to participate in the benefits of the upcoming retirements.

Smart man Tiger. Hope you get back soon.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Now that you all have done your end zone dance I have a question. Seham brought 5 issues to the court of appeals of why USAPA was wronged.

Did you READ the ruling at all?

It's right there:

The 9th declined jurisdiction due to ripeness. That means EVERYTHING that transpired is moot. All the Addington BS, and all the USAPA BS.

When they ruled on ripeness.....viola! It legally disappeared along with all the other claims and counterclaims. There was nothing else for them to decide.

 

[Black Swan]

Ah, there is a difference. The East pilots are more costly than the West pilots despite LOA93. So why would Parker open an East base in PHX if it increased costs. Besides, there is that little min block hour thing. On the other hand, Parker could open a West base in PHL furlough top of scale East pilots (East is over the min block hour), recall 2-3 year pay scale West pilots and save money.

Jim

They already did it. The West does 27% of the flying out East, and we have guys on furlough.

 

[BoeingBoy]

There was nothing else for them to decide.

Very good. So they didn't say that ignoring the Nic was OK, Good to see you catching on.

Jim

 

[Crzipilot]

Ah, there is a difference. The East pilots are more costly than the West pilots despite LOA93. So why would Parker open an East base in PHX if it increased costs. Besides, there is that little min block hour thing. On the other hand, Parker could open a West base in PHL furlough top of scale East pilots (East is over the min block hour), recall 2-3 year pay scale West pilots and save money.

Jim

Jim

problem with that scenerio I those on the bottom of the east list are not at top of scale. Still have a number of years before reaching that. Thanks to alpa

 

[nic4us]

I have said it before, I don't ever want to merge with the west no matter what method. The east,west fence we have now works just fine. If there is going to be a DFR I would like to see the Nic on trail. The plaintiffs and Wake did all they could to stay away from the Nic itself. It's going to be expensive$$, remember the west helps pay east legal costs.

You are a much wiser person than most of your fellow east pilots.

However, the Nic will never go on trial. It is what it is, a fair and equitable seniority integration between two pilot groups. The 9th made sure they did not comment on the merits of that and binding arbiration (i.e. they punted on that in their footnotes)

Yes it will continue to be expensive for as long as the east tries to get out of the Nic. But the bottom line is the Nic is not going away. The 9th just reaffirmed that. Any contract usapa gets ratified will have its seniority proposal measured against the Nic to determine wether or not the West pilots are harmed. So unless usapa uses the Nic, they harm the West, they get sued, injunction stops implementation and we continue over and over and over again until the Nic is in a ratified contract at LCC.

Two thing east posters keep pointing out but misinterpret. The 9th said, usapa is as free to abandon the Nic as ALPA was. I got a video tape of John Prater standing in front of a room full of pissed off east pilots, and in the only show of backbone he displayed in this whole mess, he tells the angry mob, ALPA cannot change the Nic.

The other thing, and this is the big one. Now we know just exactly when this case will be ripe, and more importantly, that we did not miss any statute of limitations time constraint on filling. It becomes ripe when a contract gets ratified, and then we file without concern of being tossed on late filling. This was the entire reason we filed when we did. We could stomach losing on merit or substance or even ( the get you in the future) ripeness. But we could not sit by, be raped by the east then later be told, sorry too late. Now that cannot happen.

What has not been determined is when damages start or started. Do they start on the day of ratification or in the back of the van when the east started down this road of inflicting harm on the West? Bybee knows when they started, Wake knows when they started, and I suspect that Graber and co. know when they started also, but failed to comment.

So usapa is left with very few options. The easy option, use the Nic, avoid future litigation with potentially massive damage amounts. Use the Nic, with something to appease a portion of the east hopefuly without bringing repercussions from the West ( say Nic and 5 year fence around PHL and CLT). Or continue down the dead end DOH road, never get a contract, and if they do get sued out of existance.

 

[Black Swan]

Very good. So they didn't say that ignoring the Nic was OK, Good to see you catching on.

Jim

This is unbelievable. How can you seriously take this position if you even began to read the 9th. You ought to clerk for Wake.

 

[Black Swan]

Very good. So they didn't say that ignoring the Nic was OK, Good to see you catching on.

Jim

Very good. So they didn't also say that all pilots are getting a 50% pay raise. Good to see you catching on.

 

[Black Swan]

You are a much wiser person than most of your fellow east pilots.

However, the Nic will never go on trial. It is what it is, a fair and equitable seniority integration between two pilot groups. The 9th made sure they did not comment on the merits of that and binding arbiration (i.e. they punted on that in their footnotes)

Yes it will continue to be expensive for as long as the east tries to get out of the Nic. But the bottom line is the Nic is not going away. The 9th just reaffirmed that. Any contract usapa gets ratified will have its seniority proposal measured against the Nic to determine wether or not the West pilots are harmed. So unless usapa uses the Nic, they harm the West, they get sued, injunction stops implementation and we continue over and over and over again until the Nic is in a ratified contract at LCC.

Two thing east posters keep pointing out but misinterpret. The 9th said, usapa is as free to abandon the Nic as ALPA was. I got a video tape of John Prater standing in front of a room full of pissed off east pilots, and in the only show of backbone he displayed in this whole mess, he tells the angry mob, ALPA cannot change the Nic.

The other thing, and this is the big one. Now we know just exactly when this case will be ripe, and more importantly, that we did not miss any statute of limitations time constraint on filling. It becomes ripe when a contract gets ratified, and then we file without concern of being tossed on late filling. This was the entire reason we filed when we did. We could stomach losing on merit or substance or even ( the get you in the future) ripeness. But we could not sit by, be raped by the east then later be told, sorry too late. Now that cannot happen.

What has not been determined is when damages start or started. Do they start on the day of ratification or in the back of the van when the east started down this road of inflicting harm on the West? Bybee knows when they started, Wake knows when they started, and I suspect that Graber and co. know when they started also, but failed to comment.

So usapa is left with very few options. The easy option, use the Nic, avoid future litigation with potentially massive damage amounts. Use the Nic, with something to appease a portion of the east hopefuly without bringing repercussions from the West ( say Nic and 5 year fence around PHL and CLT). Or continue down the dead end DOH road, never get a contract, and if they do get sued out of existance.

And if we go date of hire, how is that damaging when the rest of the airline merged that way.Everybody else. How can it be damaging when 3/4 of the pilots on the property merged that way? Then try and tell a judge and jury how a AWA new hire going on top of Jeo Monda 17 yrs. of uninterrupted service is not damage to him. Big point, and you are missing it. The key to your first deal was Wake. How many crackpot judges with no smarts on RLA can one run into in one lifetime? Your damage is an outlier. It is just that- YOUR damage. Imagined. You just are so greedy you think you can go on top of another guy with yrs. of service beyond yours. Good luck explaining that successfully to anyone other than Wake and a jury that has its' hand tied. Try telling that to the guy on the street, that you want to leapfrog over some guy who was hired when you were in grade school.

 

[nic4us]

I think it's time for the west pilots to seriously consider something like this. I, frankly, cannot see a lot of financial support for another DFR suit. I believe the west's best course now is to bury the hatchet and try to participate in the benefits of the upcoming retirements.

Tiger,

The West is no longer a represented seperate group, to make negotiations possible. If usapa gets any contract ratified that does not contain the Nic it does not have to be AOL that sues. So usapa is under threat of litigation unless they pass the Nic, simple as that. So is the company by the way.

But the good new for you is the east would have to recall you before hiring off the street, so you might be able to take advantage of the east retirements that most West pilots will be unable to. Seperate ops might get you up the ladder over there faster than on the West side, but remember that fence is temporary, and in the end your Nic seniority will rule the day.

In any event, hope we get you back soon, and I suspect we will, but the first opening will likely be on the east.