US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nycbusdriver]

I told you you would not like what the 9th actually just said.

They said, in layman's terms, you do not have to use the Nic, but if you use anything less and get it passed you are going to get sued and lose.

No. That's not what they said.

What they said was that you will get sued and the case will then be ripe. They, in fact, mentioned that they were not getting into the merits of the Nicolau list at all. That may be something for a ripe case. They did not say anything about winning or losing such ripe case.

 

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

Any contract that contains the Nic list would not be voted in for at least 10 years. That long of a delay would cause harm to the pilots, both east and west, and all other employee groups at US Airways, due to the loss of synergies. It has also been stated by many west pilots on this board that the Nic list actually hurt their seniority. The Nic list leaves 500 plus of the most senior positions to east pilots with absolutely no C & R's, thereby free to bid west and bump many pilots out of their base.

A DOH list with conditions and restrictions would prevent those 500 + from bidding out west. In order to avoid a DFR claim after the next contract USAPA must fairly represent ALL pilots, east and west, not just the west pilots. Only after said contract is put out to the MIGS for ratification and passed will we know if any such "harm" was done to the west pilots. The big problem will be trying to prove you were harmed by the new contract versus not having a new contract at all, or a contract with Nic, and no C & R's.

 

[Barrister]

I think everyone is probably reading way too much into this decision, which essentially returns USAPA to status quo two years ago. Every union has a right to renegotiate their seniority list at any time, they don't need a merger or an arbitration to trigger that. However, if they renegotiate a seniority list, they have to show that it is non-discriminatory or they have to show that a larger union purpose will be served by the discrimination. Seniority is zero-sum, if I move up a number then someone else moves down a number. It is tough to show non-discrimination in seniority matters. The idea that date of hire is a legitimate union objective is not going to fly in court.

The central question that seemed to be answered is that the Nicolau list is the reference point in deciding non-discrimination. USAPA is not free to begin a do-over and re-litigate the original seniority dispute. ALPA was free to modify the Nicolau award and attempted to do so at Wye River. It would have been easier to show non-discrimination with a two party process, because the AWA Merger Committee was independent and would have had to ratify the changes. That independent stamp of approval would go a long way to show non-discrimination.

USAPA has a steeper hill to climb. They are also free to modify the Nicolau award, but is has been shown fairly conclusively that USAPA was formed primarily to discriminate against the AWA pilots and is clearly an instrument of the AAA pilots. Any list that is remotely akin to their original DOH proposal to the company will get crushed in court. They don't get to measure "pre-merger expectations" any more. You have to measure "post-merger expectations" and that measure will start with the arbitration award. The idea that USAPA can get away with a wholesale restructuring of the list is pretty far fetched.

The final question mark is what will the company's reaction be. I can't imagine the company agreeing to significantly modify the arbitration award, because that will put them on the hook for potential damages that could run into hundreds of millions. They were a party to the transition agreement that established the seniority list and they can't just walk away from that without liability. I can't imagine the NMB would react favorably to a seniority proposal that puts such a huge burden on the company and is essentially a neutral for the pilots (someone gains, someone loses).

QUOTE ABOVE RESPONSE BELOW

Ah...our old friend OJ...the guy who I believe told us that the NW guy just Junior to him had about 3-4 years longer at NW than he did at DAL....and that he "just didn't pay that much attention to it......HA!!..I GUESS NOT. So, you read the opinion and came up with the NIC as the reference point. You sir, are a joke. When you consider that 60% of this airline is DOH, what makes you so sure DOH won'y fly. Remember dude the disparity at your great airline is at most 4-5 years. Here....15-20. The company no longer has to recognize NIC. Have you even read the opinion...doesn't sound like it. Every court has dismisses the Corporation from all litigation....they are on the hook for NOTHING. Can't wait for trial day when we explain that a 17 year guy was placed junior to a probationary 2 month newbie....THAT MY FRIEND IS THE STARTING POINT....NOT NIC. Go back to lurking. You have no dog in this fight...that is unless we buy you next!!

NPJB

 

[Barrister]

If you're hoping to outspend the west I think you're in for a surprise. Prior to the merger AWA was a very enjoyable place to work (from what I've heard that is no longer the case). I flew with a surprising number of captains who flew for AWA as a hobby. One fellow I remember showed me a picture of his 275 alloy bodied Ferrari and his gorgeous house in Sedona. He even kept a sailboat in San Diego. Another guy had a practice in California. I doubt the same can be said for the east. Besides the only people getting rich off both sides fighting are the lawyers and management.

Wow, our bad. There must be some deep pockets there man. What are they gonna do foot the bill and assess ya later.

NPJB

 

[Walmartgreeter]

This month marks my three years of absence from this forum, and I will say the same thing I said when I left, simply that there is work to do and it will not be accomplished by posting on this forum. This board should only be considered entertainment, so I hope you have a good chuckle at my remarks. I won't be back again..ever.

USAPA was indeed founded in the back of a van, and not by a group of "angry F/Os." Actually it was a group of "angry pilots."...angry at ALPA. Since my last post, USAPA has exceeded all my expectations. It will never be perfect, but it has slowly, over the last three years, made a permanent, positive mark in the airline labor scene. I won't go into all the successes, only to have those who so daily snipe at this union spew their filth. I don't really care what anyone thinks here.

The latest from the Ninth pretty much seals the deal. Nic was the straw that broke the camel's back. Job one was to kill the Nic. It is indeed dead.

The founders of USAPA, and the intent of said founders will no longer be judged by the unjust rule of a PHX kangaroo court.. If you are going to sue us now, the Ninth has made clear you have every right to do so. You have always had that right under the tenets of DFR..only problem is this time you shot too early and never even met the standards in the first place. You can sue again, but it will be after a ratified contract. Don't you love it....the Ninth even says ALPA could have dumped the Nic!

The Ninth says USAPA, just as any legally elected union, can determine its own bargaining positions and put them out to a vote. No new law here. Perhaps if you all had listened to Seham and Bradford at the first USAPA meeting three years ago you would already know what just happened was predicted..with the only exception being just how quick it would all occur, and with such a clear, concise win.

Let me get this straight....USAPA will negotiate a new contract with a DOH list and Conditions and Restrictions, it will be voted on, and then the West is supposedly going to sue because DOH is not fair. Good luck with that. Even not being able to present our case in Judge Wake's courtroom..we still prevailed in the legal system..and paid all our legal bills..every single one (thanks for the help with that, thanks a lot!)
Good bye!

Greeter

 

[nycbusdriver]

I love being underestimated.

Doesn't appear to have happened yet, so how would you know?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

If you're hoping to outspend the west I think you're in for a surprise. Prior to the merger AWA was a very enjoyable place to work (from what I've heard that is no longer the case). I flew with a surprising number of captains who flew for AWA as a hobby. One fellow I remember showed me a picture of his 275 alloy bodied Ferrari and his gorgeous house in Sedona. He even kept a sailboat in San Diego. Another guy had a practice in California. I doubt the same can be said for the east. Besides the only people getting rich off both sides fighting are the lawyers and management.

Should we be looking for these on Ebay or Craigslist?

 

[nic4us]

You hear stories like this, but all of the east pilots i've met except for one were really cool. The jerk was a little putz FO with a bright yellow DOH sticker on his bag who couldn't have beat his way out of a wet paper sack. On the flip side I've had east captains pull me of coach and stick me in first class, very classy guys.

And the one and only time I requested a jumpseat from an east captain, he denied my request. Classy guy for sure, fits right in with the rest of the classy, dishonorable, fellows flying airplanes over there. who's word is worth less than than the foul breath that speaks it.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

And the one and only time I requested a jumpseat from an east captain, he denied my request. Classy guy for sure, fits right in with the rest of the classy, dishonorable, fellows flying airplanes over there. who's word is worth less than than the foul breath that speaks it.

You can blame anybody you want, but the west started that crap. You could even read about it right here. Maybe the east Captain had been denied jumpseat by a west guy. Who knows?

 

[nic4us]

Has the company said anything under oath as to what list they plan to use Nic or DOH?

Yes, during the Addington trial, a company representative said under oath that the company had no intention of using the DO
H list that usapa had passed at the bargaining table, and as far as they were concerned the Nic list would be used in any joint contract between usapa and LCC as per the
TA.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Yes, during the Addington trial, a company representative said under oath that the company had no intention of using the DO
H list that usapa had passed at the bargaining table, and as far as they were concerned the Nic list would be used in any joint contract between usapa and LCC as per the
TA.

That all changed Friday. YOU LOST!

Why do you think that AOL is asking for an En Banc review? I know. The company likes the west guys so much more than anybody else, the En Banc review is not necessary!

 

[traderjake]

Trader,

I believe you can thank ALPA for making $85 an hour under the worst contract in the industry. USAPA has been around for 2 years. Hard to blame them for $85 for 5 years.

I blame them for the last two years and the next three that I could have been working under the West contract or better.

The hard liners that brought us the NIC award and USAPA also negotiated LOA 93. Real men of genius.

 

[cleardirect]

You can blame anybody you want, but the west started that crap. You could even read about it right here. Maybe the east Captain had been denied jumpseat by a west guy. Who knows?

Correction there oldy. It was the east that started the jump seat issue. It started when the Nicolau was released. Before that we were pretty much together.

Learn the facts.

 

[nic4us]

You can blame anybody you want, but the west started that crap. You could even read about it right here. Maybe the east Captain had been denied jumpseat by a west guy. Who knows?

I do not care who started it. I never denied an east pilot, and have carried a good few, especially when the jump seat wars were hot and heavy. I had to suck it up and even convince an unwilling f/o once to let one of yours ride.

In the future please feel welcome on West metal if I am driving it. It is the least I could do for one of the east pilots who are trying to steal my job, give them a front row seat of the position their fake union feels some furloughed pilot with less LOS desevres to take. But I will no longer put any limits on the topic of conversation.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I blame them for the last two years and the next three that I could have been working under the West contract or better.

The hard liners that brought us the NIC award and USAPA also negotiated LOA 93. Real men of genius.

More lies. None of the negotiators of LOA 93 is currently a USAPA officer. Plus, it was ratified by membership vote, one of the few times ALPA allowed that. ALPA NEVER disclosed true company financial data, only the FUD they needed to get what they wanted.

USAPA is the BEST pilot union I've been associated with in my rather lengthy career. I get more timely info and vote on more important issues than ALPA EVER let occur.

to modify your quote a little:
ALPA. Real idiots.