US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Phoenix]

... 1.No I am arguing that we reached the Nic through arbitration. 2. Internal, binding does not matter.

Wrong on both points.

1. It isn't the "we" that matters to the 9th. It is the unions that have the authority and responsibility. It was ALPA alone that ruled the ALPA internal process and it was ALPA alone that had the legal authority. ALPA had the Nic as a proposal and the 9th said as much. It is abundantly obvious that the 9th fully acknowledges that USAPA has sole authority and responsibility now.

2. all three judges disagree with your second point, unless of course you think the judges are incompetent wannabees that don't know the impact of their words, and coincidentally used opposing adjectives consistently throughout their majority opinion and dissent. I know.. I know... its the only bet you have. Pull out your wallet and persuade everyone into double or nothing.

Cheers. 🙄

 

[luvn737s]

It's funny how USAPA supporters are holding out a decoy olive branch expecting the west to bite. USAPA thinks the next battle will be APA vs USAPA, but deep down knows it will be APA+west pilots vs USAPA and that makes them very afraid. I would recommend that AOL principals begin or continue developing alliances with the APA leadership to ensure any attempted land grab from the east is completely stifled.

Vindictiveness+majority = something USAPA can dish out, but cannot take.

 

[BoeingBoy]

2. all three judges disagree with your second point, unless of course you think the judges are incompetent wannabees that don't know the impact of their words, and coincidentally used opposing adjectives consistently throughout their majority opinion and dissent.

Actually the "internal" vs "binding" is a smokescreen. Internal only means that the arbitration was internal to an organization, whether that organization is a union (arbitration between members) or a company (arbitration between management and worker). That means ... oh, say the LOA93 pay arbitration, is an internal arbitration. Your logic says that the company doesn't have to abide by the LOA93 ruling if they don't like it, because it won't be binding since it's an internal arbitration.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Actually the "internal" vs "binding" is a smokescreen. Internal only means that the arbitration was internal to an organization, whether that organization is a union (arbitration between members) or a company (arbitration between management and worker). That means ... oh, say the LOA93 pay arbitration, is an internal arbitration. Your logic says that the company doesn't have to abide by the LOA93 ruling if they don't like it, because it won't be binding since it's an internal arbitration.

Jim

No, a better analogy would be that someone is awarded a pay raise in arbitration here, then quits and goes to work for Jetblue. Jetblue is not obligated to honor LCC's arbitration, and may have different rules for its pay structure.

Similar to: internal arbitration by one CBA, one that even that CBA tried to modify and admits that it caused a stalemate in contract talks. Then, that CBA gets fired, replaced by a better one with more realistic plans. Since the arbitration was only a process of the first CBA, the new CBA doesn't have to use that method, or the results of the first.

 

[Phoenix]

No, a better analogy would be that someone is awarded a pay raise in arbitration here, then quits and goes to work for Jetblue. Jetblue is not obligated to honor LCC's arbitration, and may have different rules for its pay structure.

Similar to: internal arbitration by one CBA, one that even that CBA tried to modify and admits that it caused a stalemate in contract talks. Then, that CBA gets fired, replaced by a better one with more realistic plans. Since the arbitration was only a process of the first CBA, the new CBA doesn't have to use that method, or the results of the first.

Good analogy but we're just cave men and will never learn. I mean internal to the cave means dry and external to the cave means rain. What's to learn.. Internal just means internal and no umbrella required. 😀

The Confederacy had a monetary system that was decided internally. The Union had/has a monetary system that was decided internally.

"Internal" has a lot more to do with ascribing who had/has the authority, to establish the seniority integration system, than the West can swallow, for obvious reasons.

Nic is indeed dead until the elected union says otherwise.. Or the supreme court reverses the 9th.

Even HP can't wiggle out of the reality of this one.

 

[john john]

Wow! You really are dense. Let's spell it out for you.

Lots of big airplanes and and a route system that took United from a small domestic airline to an international powerhouse (at the time) = good.

Same old narrowbodies, a few old 767's, and BK #2 = bad.

I never said East had nothing to offer West. But you were the one who brought up the Pan Am comparison. I was just answering your question.

Selective DOH yea that makes sense.UA ALPA powerhouse has lot to do with the problems of seniority integration with ALPA pilots. The process has and was changed several times and possible change in the future
No direction

 

[Freebird]

Selective DOH yea that makes sense.

Now that Usapa dosen't have an Injunction to deal with, are they going to follow Sully's advice?

You know. The advice he gave his daughter about Integrity. "Doing the right thing, even when you dont agree."

Tread Carefully, My friend...

 

[Freebird]

I've been sitting here posting so much the last few days, my CACTUS is starting to hurt!

Yes you have. You sound like the short kid on the playground who would always talk "big" and then goes to hide behind his friends. Your gloating is entertaining though.

You've been hiding all this time and "Poof" here you are. You team won the trial due to ripeness, and nothing else.

Observation: When you post as often as you do, your posts become irrelevant. Lost in the minutiae with the other drivel.

You are correct. ALPA does suck. USAPA's Integrity sucks more.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Yes you have. You sound like the short kid on the playground who would always talk "big" and then goes to hide behind his friends. Your gloating is entertaining though.

You've been hiding all this time and "Poof" here you are. You team won the trial due to ripeness, and nothing else.

Observation: When you post as often as you do, your posts become irrelevant. Lost in the minutiae with the other drivel.

You are correct. ALPA does suck. USAPA's Integrity sucks more.

A lot of folks stopped posting here. In fact, I even stopped reading this blog for a while. I got tired of reading attacks by the west guys and ALPA shills against anything anybody wrote offering unique or inventive solutions. Instead, I read "integrity" and "you lost" and "give me my seat". Well, the tide has turned. I'm enjoying watching the narrowminded individuals and whiners get a taste of their own medicine. OPEN WIDE!

Talk about drivel. That's all the westies have left. That and some illegal game playing.

Oh, and I forgot, a HUGE legal bill!

 

[700UW]

Using usapa's method of thinking, since the current CBA and T/A were between ALPA and US, then they should not be valid anymore and you should all be employees at will with no CBA.

And any grievance settlement/arbitration that got someone their job back should be terminated cause it was between ALPA and US.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Using usapa's method of thinking, since the current CBA and T/A were between ALPA and US, then they should not be valid anymore and you should all be employees at will with no CBA.

And any grievance settlement/arbitration that got someone their job back should be terminated cause it was between ALPA and US.

That's not their thinking. Their thinking, I believe, is that we live under a contract (and TAs) negotiated by the CBA (Collective Bargaining Agent). Once signed by BOTH sides, it's a done deal. In this case, we are negotiating a NEW contract. As the new CBA, USAPA gets to (or I should say is responsible for) negotiating the new one. Not part of it, ALL of it, including seniority. That's what the law says, as well.

The contract is between the company and the pilots, not the company and the CBA. That's why it doesn't go away. The CBA only negotiates and signs it as an agent of the pilots.

For clarifications, read Baptiste & Wilder's Blog on the subject. It makes it VERY clear, as well as why Judge Wake was wrong.

Here's the link:
http://bapwild.com/blog/?cat=26

Let me just say that the only aprt of this narrative that I disagree with is his criticism of SSM&P. The Judge took every opportunity to prevent them from presenting a viable case. They had been "cutoff at the knees" on numerous occasions. At least justice finally prevailed.

 

[john john]

Using usapa's method of thinking, since the current CBA and T/A were between ALPA and US, then they should not be valid anymore and you should all be employees at will with no CBA.

And any grievance settlement/arbitration that got someone their job back should be terminated cause it was between ALPA and US.

Renegotiate grievance settlement/arbitration like IAM did with heavy maintenance and attendance and 401k

 

[bigbusdrvr]

Actually, there's nothing to "get". The arbitration was internal because it was the last step in ALPA's internal merger process which both sides agreed to. That internal process made it binding, which both sides also agreed to. Even USAPA uses binding arbitration as part of it's merger process if it comes to that stage.

Jim

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Now Jim you know as well as any that USAPA merger policy will be dictated by the Mcaskile bill......Unless you know of another pilot group represeted by USAPA.
I assume your just distraught at not coming up with a solid answer for your west friends as to their delima......but you dont need to grab at straws....

And yes I know the bill mandates arbitration, but that arbitration mandates Allegheny/Mohawk LPP. and they are not straight DOH, but use DOH as a starting point....

Real estate is cheap in Pheonix, moved yet?

 

[AWE Dog]

It's funny how USAPA supporters are holding out a decoy olive branch expecting the west to bite. USAPA thinks the next battle will be APA vs USAPA, but deep down knows it will be APA+west pilots vs USAPA and that makes them very afraid. I would recommend that AOL principals begin or continue developing alliances with the APA leadership to ensure any attempted land grab from the east is completely stifled.

Vindictiveness+majority = something USAPA can dish out, but cannot take.

Make sure you tell the APA folks how much you luv ALPA.

 

[bigbusdrvr]

I like the way you think.

I wish USAPA would move forward already with all the bravado we are hearing on this forum. That way we can put all their half baked theories to the test and see the actual consequences, instead of all the speculation.

Come on USAPA. If you're so confident that the NIC is dead and the 9th gave you permission to do whatever you want to, get the ball rolling already. What's the hold up?

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It hasnt been a week yet, whats it to you, ............ up at 5;30 am to watch n post on usairways board......not much of a life for you. ehh!!