US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[KTM300]

This is a big sticking point over there. I think at Continental their contract keeps everything under 76 seats and theiy only allow the turboprop. Where at United I think they are kind of getting to the same situation we have here, they are down to about 360 airframes and the express operation is operating a larger percentage of flights than the mainline operation. I wish them success!

Another way of defining the situation at UAL and obviously here with the RJ flying is with the term "cabotage"...brought to you by none other than ALPA!!!!

 

[notsofast]

UA pilots lost big time in the scope area during bankruptcy. Continental is only allowed to outsource 50 seat RJ's. UA allows 70 seaters with some restrictions.

And it's not just domestic regional traffic that is the problem. International code shares attack the top end of our flying. UA's Air Lingus deal is directly in the crosshairs. With that deal, both companies started a new alter ego using AirLingus aircraft, but not crews. They were going to hire off the street and fly in and out of IAD. Pilots were at least able to secure those jobs for AirLingus crews only, but operating on a separate, cheaper contract.

Folks, everyone has to start thinking globally and not just regionally. This outsourcing is a cancer to our industry.

Thank you, UAL Pilots, for causing the cancer. Now you have the gall to asks others to act in a way you had no courage to do so. Smells like ALPA strategy. Take the hit spread the pain.

 

[VAflyGal]

Scope language = key. We discussed the Aer Lingus situation from IAD back in March at the PHL AFA LEC meeting. The companies can circumnavigate language that isn't airtight, hence the IAD Aer Lingus issue - and if you look far enough into the future you can see that's only the beginning.

A lot of our maintenance is outsourced... Res was / is until enough people complain...

If we all worked to protect our scope and gained back some of our routes, there would be enough captain slots to make everyone happy.

Think about it. Regional today, internationally outsourced tomorrow.

Do you think Joe Public cares?
They care about how cheap the ticket is, experience be damned.

Please try to focus on the bigger picture. I am so sorry all of you are going through your seniority nightmare but there are bigger issues that face all of us at large and the sooner we come together to deal with them and stop the infighting, the better off we will be.

Peace.

 

[N924PS]

Another way of defining the situation at UAL and obviously here with the RJ flying is with the term "cabotage"...brought to you by none other than ALPA!!!!

Cabotage has not yet taken place in the US. I believe ALPA has been a strong opponent of cabotage.

To learn more about cabotage you should read this:

http://www.dot.gov/ost/ogc/subject/faqs/international/airlineCabotage.html

 

[biggie smalls]

Scope language = key. We discussed the Aer Lingus situation from IAD back in March at the PHL AFA LEC meeting. The companies can circumnavigate language that isn't airtight, hence the IAD Aer Lingus issue - and if you look far enough into the future you can see that's only the beginning.

A lot of our maintenance is outsourced... Res was / is until enough people complain...

If we all worked to protect our scope and gained back some of our routes, there would be enough captain slots to make everyone happy.

Think about it. Regional today, internationally outsourced tomorrow.

Do you think Joe Public cares?
They care about how cheap the ticket is, experience be damned.

Please try to focus on the bigger picture. I am so sorry all of you are going through your seniority nightmare but there are bigger issues that face all of us at large and the sooner we come together to deal with them and stop the infighting, the better off we will be.

Peace.

Right on sister,

 

[BoeingBoy]

Thank you, UAL Pilots, for causing the cancer.

You need to learn the history of outsourcing flying to regional carriers. Then you can comment intelligently...

Jim

 

[notsofast]

You need to learn the history of outsourcing flying to regional carriers. Then you can comment intelligently...

Jim

It all started with United being the first to allow their regionals to fly jets using Air Wisconsin. Once the door is open it makes it hard for the rest not to follow. My post was not only about regional flying, it also include the Aer Lingus fiasco. Say hy to Prater for me.

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

Nope, it started with Henson Aviation and Allegheny Airlines:

The airline was formed in 1961 by Richard Henson as Henson Aviation, a fixed base operator in Hagerstown, Maryland. It began its first scheduled flights to Washington National Airport in 1962 under the Hagerstown Commuter name, later changed to Henson Airlines.[3] Allegheny Airlines (now US Airways) and Henson began one of the world's first code sharing arrangements in 1967, and Henson re-branded itself as an Allegheny Commuter carrier using Beechcraft 99 aircraft. It initially developed a route structure serving Washington DC, Philadelphia and Baltimore while establishing a new headquarters for Allegheny Commuter at Salisbury, Maryland in 1968. In the 1970s, the airline upgraded to Shorts 330 and De Havilland Dash 7 turboprops.[3]

In 1983, Piedmont Aviation bought Henson and re-branded the airline as "Henson, The Piedmont Regional Airline." Under Piedmont's control, the airline expanded rapidly, particularly in Florida. Both were purchased by the USAir Group in 1987 with Piedmont absorbed two years later and Henson's aircraft repainted in USAir Express livery.[4] The 1980s saw rapid growth by the company, first resulting the upgrade of its fleet to the De Havilland Canada Dash 8 aircraft, and an expansion in the fleet size. With the growth in passenger capacity, the airline made a geographic expansion to Florida, including numerous intrastate routes in Florida, and it opened a maintenance facility in Jacksonville.[3]

The Piedmont name was resurrected in 1993, when USAir (now US Airways) renamed Henson to "Piedmont Airlines", to protect the Piedmont brand name, which could be used by others if not exercised in trade use for a period of time. USAir continued this practice by changing the name of its two other wholly owned regional airline subsidiaries, Jetstream and Allegheny Commuter, to PSA Airlines and Allegheny Airlines, respectively. (Pacific Southwest Airlines was the name of a California-based airline merged into USAir.) In 1997, USAir was renamed US Airways, and Piedmont was likewise re-branded as a US Airways Express carrier. US Airways merged Allegheny Airlines into Piedmont in 2004. The airline has 6,150 employees (at November 2007).[4]

 

[notsofast]

Nope, it started with Henson Aviation and Allegheny Airlines:

My post "It all started with United being the first to allow their regionals to fly jets using Air Wisconsin. Once the door is open it makes it hard for the rest not to follow. My post was not only about regional flying, it also include the Aer Lingus fiasco."

Jets were the down fall, not small turbo props that everybody had.

From an article about Air Wisconsin history;
"Air Wisconsin also pioneered, in the mid-1980s, the regional jet concept--i.e., using smaller jet aircraft, in this case the 100-seat British Aerospace BAe 146, to replace turboprops on short routes. "

 

[psw737]

Nope, it started with Henson Aviation and Allegheny Airlines:

Your wrong. The previous poster was refering to the first contracted regional flying large rj's and that was at united with air wisconsin flying the old bae 146 with 100 seats. They got grandfathered into the latest United contract that prohibited anything above 76 seats( I think that was the number). They have been gone since 2005 or so.

 

[psw737]

The problem with the scope isn't the turboprop flying. The problem is the 38 crj900 at Mesa, the 70 crj200 at airwiscon, the 50 crj200 and 700 at psa and the 100+ emb 145 and e170 and 175 at republic. There is probrably even more that I'm missing. That is a ton of mainline flying that was given away. They are doing all the old dc-9 flying, f100, 737-200 etc.... Sickening. I would have rather been offered the current 190 pay rates to keep that flying in house, call it a B scale or whatever you want. Job security is key!

 

[luvn737s]

It all started with United being the first to allow their regionals to fly jets using Air Wisconsin. Once the door is open it makes it hard for the rest not to follow. My post was not only about regional flying, it also include the Aer Lingus fiasco. Say hy to Prater for me.

No, it was Comair, the US launch customer for the CRJ-200. Air Wisconsin operated the BAe146 under their own autonomous operation. United wanted the commuter slots at Ohare and was able to operate larger jets on them. Later they contracted with a re-constituted Air Wisconsin to operate as a United Express.

 

[luvn737s]

Job security? How do you suppose a union restriction in any way leads to job security? Don't you think that the UAW, USW, AFL-CIO and others would have figured a way to secure their members jobs AND secure the financial viability of the host corporation? You will either operate the jets in-house under a contract that mimics the regional world (Z-scale, or E-190) or the company will contract for the lift. Remeber that the RJ rates will have an influence on book rates across the board. To think otherwise is naieve.

Security cannot be built into a contract. It will only come from a management that can adapt to changing markets and a workforce that sees through the rhetoric to where their own best interests lie.

The barn door has been open 25 years. The horse you're chasing is long gone!

 

[luvthe9]

Thanks. And Thanks. I'll take them both as a compliment.

I'd guess you loathe my POV because you support stealing jobs? Or is it because you dont care to Honor the Binding Arbitration and would rather waste dues money on a "Fools-gold" standard?

Usapa = Yes, we're paid less than Spirit, jetBlue and just about EVERYone else...Whats-it-tooya?

How do you figure? Last I looked a east 75 driver did a lot better than west, then the 330. You guys get paid the same for everything. Add in the 10k coming in Dec, and you don't stack up as good as you think.

 

[psw737]

Job security? How do you suppose a union restriction in any way leads to job security? Don't you think that the UAW, USW, AFL-CIO and others would have figured a way to secure their members jobs AND secure the financial viability of the host corporation? You will either operate the jets in-house under a contract that mimics the regional world (Z-scale, or E-190) or the company will contract for the lift. Remeber that the RJ rates will have an influence on book rates across the board. To think otherwise is naieve.

Security cannot be built into a contract. It will only come from a management that can adapt to changing markets and a workforce that sees through the rhetoric to where their own best interests lie.

The barn door has been open 25 years. The horse you're chasing is long gone!

Nothing is guaranteed in this business but if we didn't have min fleet and block hours, there would be a whole lot more of us furloughed right now. It wouldn't surprise me if the whole domestic operation were contracted out to republic at some point. Mainline would only be trans atlantic, you better hope this union does something to address scope and creates some sort of job security in the next contract. Some how delta has a no furlough clause in their contract, not sure exactly how it works but it is designed to preserve jobs!