US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Barrister]

Perhaps globally there is "compromise" in a sense, but it would take Cleary and USAPA completely changing their modus operandi up to this point. There can be no compromise on the Nicolau list as it is the axis upon which the entire integration turns. Claims of fairness and blaming former bargaining agents have passed their time. USAPA can compromise by striking DOH as it's sole integration methodology in the C&BL's and it can compromise by fully including the west as an equal partner in crafting contract provisions that will satisfy both sides inclusive of Nicolau. The west can "compromise" to the extent that if these efforts are genuine, the west can begin the process of trusting the USAPA leadership (Cleary must go, his character cannot be salvaged at this point), and building a unified union.

The bigger question is: Is there any will to build a union on any basis other than the tyranny of the majority? Answer that and you will see the future of USAPA.

That sounds a lot like yes we can compromise as long as our 5-10 year f/os can jump
ahead of your 20 year f/os and lets not forget the 80 or so West Guys who would
jump ahead of the bottom 330 guys who were hired way befor AW even existed.....Yea that the ticket!!!!!
You seriously think this will ever happen. If something doesn't happen by the time our attrition kicks in....it never will.
Better work fast.

NICDAO
NPJB

 

[Freighterguynow]

(My opinion and not from the company annoucement)
Depending on how many furloughed East pilots accept recall or resign from the list we will be getting close to the point where the West furloughs will begin to be offered East vacancies as required prior to hiring additional pilots. With 4th quarter capacity projected to be up 4% over last year, new FAR pilots rest rules next year and accelerating attrition we will hopefully see everyone back in 2011.

underpants

Confirmed at the latest Crew News. All East furloughs back by the end of the year, additional vacancies offered to West furloughs then hiring East off the street Spring (?) ...

 

[N924PS]

Yea and throw the 1500 or so F/Os here under the bus. A disguting notion.
Spoken like a true "it won't affect me" warrior.

I presume you mean the ones that were furloughed that absent the merger would still be unemployed..........

I find a DOH cramdown for the West a disgusting notion. Hopefully, it will be found illegal as well.

 

[KTM300]

I presume you mean the ones that were furloughed that absent the merger would still be unemployed..........

I find a DOH cramdown for the West a disgusting notion. Hopefully, it will be found illegal as well.

First...your first statement is subjective.

More importantly however....DOH with C's& R's......is not a cramdown. Stapling to the bottom is a cramdown, DOH with no C&R's is a cramdown. And accepting the Nic is a cramdown

 

[BoeingBoy]

First...your first statement is subjective.

As is the claim that a contract containing the NIC will never pass. It seems that most East posters make that claim but aren't willing to test it's accuracy.

More importantly however....DOH with C's& R's......is not a cramdown.

It is when those writing the C&R's are doing the cramming.

Jim

 

[N924PS]

First...your first statement is subjective.

More importantly however....DOH with C's& R's......is not a cramdown. Stapling to the bottom is a cramdown, DOH with no C&R's is a cramdown. And accepting the Nic is a cramdown

A DOH list is a staple job for most of the West pilots. DOH with USAPA crafted C&R's is a cramdown of the highest order.

Accepting binding arbitration wasn't a cramdown until you didn't like the result.

 

[767jetz]

First...your first statement is subjective.

More importantly however....DOH with C's& R's......is not a cramdown. Stapling to the bottom is a cramdown, DOH with no C&R's is a cramdown. And accepting the Nic is a cramdown

Nic was the product of a process that included negotiation of both sides, mediation with both sides, and finally arbitration done by a person and 2 neutrals selected by both sides. I'd call that fair.

DOH with C&R (if it ever were to come to pass) done by a majority, forced upon a minority against their will, with no input, is most definitely a cram down.

 

[luvn737s]

That sounds a lot like yes we can compromise as long as our 5-10 year f/os can jump
ahead of your 20 year f/os and lets not forget the 80 or so West Guys who would
jump ahead of the bottom 330 guys who were hired way befor AW even existed.....Yea that the ticket!!!!!

I wish one east poster here would demonstrate a knowledge of the difference between seniority and longevity. 5,10 or 20 years is irrelevant. Sorry to break it to you, but a 20-year F/O would understand exactly what I'm talking about. Speak in terms of your "senior" or "junior" pilots and th Nicolau list will make sense, as it does to virtually every non-east pilot who has ever seen it.

 

[KTM300]

A DOH list is a staple job for most of the West pilots. DOH with USAPA crafted C&R's is a cramdown of the highest order.

Accepting binding arbitration wasn't a cramdown until you didn't like the result.

I doubt the senior westies('83, '84) don't have a problem with DOH.

Had nicalau(sp) followed the ALPA merger policy at least a little closer, it wouldn't have placed pilots from AAA behind AW with 11 plus years of service less. That is a windfall plain and simple. And I'm not talking about F/O's either.

 

[767jetz]

I wish one east poster here would demonstrate a knowledge of the difference between seniority and longevity. 5,10 or 20 years is irrelevant. Sorry to break it to you, but a 20-year F/O would understand exactly what I'm talking about. Speak in terms of your "senior" or "junior" pilots and th Nicolau list will make sense, as it does to virtually every non-east pilot who has ever seen it.

Exactly!

The problem with many of the east pilot posters here (basically the "hardliners") is that they are fixated on how many years a person had at their respective companies, or how old they are. Both are pretty irrelevant in this discussion of seniority, since a 20 year pilot on the east was just as junior as a 5 year pilot on the west. It's as if they believe that everyone must go through the same suffering they did or else their position is not deserved.

I don't think anyone denies that what they endured in their careers was an abomination. Much like the TWA pilots, 20+ years at the bottom is not an enviable fate. But it is what they brought to the table.

 

[nic4us]

I wish one east poster here would demonstrate a knowledge of the difference between seniority and longevity.

I wish one east poster here would demonstrate a knowledge of the actual ramifications of implementation of the Nic.

 

[KTM300]

Exactly!

The problem with many of the east pilot posters here (basically the "hardliners") is that they are fixated on how many years a person had at their respective companies, or how old they are. Both are pretty irrelevant in this discussion of seniority, since a 20 year pilot on the east was just as junior as a 5 year pilot on the west. It's as if they believe that everyone must go through the same suffering they did or else their position is not deserved.

I don't think anyone denies that what they endured in their careers was an abomination. Much like the TWA pilots, 20+ years at the bottom is not an enviable fate. But it is what they brought to the table.

By your own admission, you didn't bring anything to this table...You may be excused.

 

[mikey60]

Exactly!

The problem with many of the east pilot posters here (basically the "hardliners") is that they are fixated on how many years a person had at their respective companies, or how old they are. Both are pretty irrelevant in this discussion of seniority, since a 20 year pilot on the east was just as junior as a 5 year pilot on the west. It's as if they believe that everyone must go through the same suffering they did or else their position is not deserved.

I don't think anyone denies that what they endured in their careers was an abomination. Much like the TWA pilots, 20+ years at the bottom is not an enviable fate. But it is what they brought to the table.

It doesn't matter who brought what to the table as long as it ends up DOH.

 

[767jetz]

Had nicalau(sp) followed the ALPA merger policy at least a little closer, it wouldn't have placed pilots from AAA behind AW with 11 plus years of service less. That is a windfall plain and simple.

Nicolau did follow ALPA merger policy very closely. YOS did not play a role in merger policy. Pilots of disparate YOS and equal seniority does not fit the definition of a windfall in a merger. Seniority is like currency. That currency should buy you approximately what you could buy before. If all your 20 years got you was a right seat in an A320, that's what your new number should afford you.

When you exchange dollars for Euros you may end up with a different number, but you should be able to buy approximately the same amount of product. You can't go to the exchange window and claim that since it took you 20 years to accumulate your dollars, you should get a better exchange rate than the guy who acumulated the same amount in a shorter time. Maybe he just invested his time and money more wisely. Maybe he was just luckier. Maybe he had a rich uncle. The exchange rate remains the same.

Furloughed is furloughed. Junior reserve f/o is junior reserve f/o. Senior line holding captain is senior line holding captain. Trying to get more than what you had the day before the merger, based on some irrelevant metric that happens to favor you... now THAT's a windfall. Plain and simple.

 

[767jetz]

It doesn't matter who brought what to the table as long as it ends up DOH.

Well, that is certainly one of several opinions. And you are certainly entitled to yours. My opinion is that those who believe it will end up DOH will continue to be disappointed. The legal arguments for DOH are slowly evaporating. It is only a matter of time before reality sets in and people will be ready to move forward.

And btw, isn't it the east who keep saying "keep what you brought?" It does go both ways. You brought 17 year furloughees and 20 year junior A320 f/o's.