US Pilots Thread 11/24-12/1-Discuss Pilot Labor Issues Here

[Richard]

OK here is the new thread for the week--and below is a copy of the first thread from last week with some reminders.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This will serve as yet another but more final notice:

Any posting of personal insults, name calling (group or individual), attacks , plus ANY comments directly aimed at another poster, with detrimental intent, will be deleted (NOT edited but deleted) by the moderators, and we will, at our discretion, hand out lengthy suspensions for such posts.

ALSO--please be aware that any member caught posting under more than one screen name for ANY reason, and ESPECIALLY for the purpose of malicious posting or posting while suspended under the original name will be terminated from the boards under ALL screen names, and will be blocked from signing up again.

We realize that the issues discussed here are important, and that many of you have passionate feelings one way or the other. That is no excuse for some of the childish behavior and wind up and antagonistic posts which have appeared here, and we state yet again that such posting will NOT be tolerated.

Please remember to discuss only the ISSUES , and not the INDIVIDUALS.

And a final reminder--if you have any questions or comments regarding moderation, PM a moderator-do NOT post moderating comments on a public board--that is grounds for immediate suspension. We DO want to hear from you, but only through proper channels.

Thank you.

 

[fodase]

Alas, our hope that USAPA had “turned over a new leaf,†from a communications standpoint was dashed by late Friday morning as the USAPA spin masters were back on the job and forced to re-double their efforts to give the impression that everything was under control in light of Judge Wake's Order (which incidentally they had posted on their brand new “litigation documents†page before we had even). USAPA's “Litigation Status Report – November 21, 2008,†took great pains to gloss over the Order as a whole, and dutifully reminded the USAPA supporters of... well, more of the exact same things they have been saying all along- except spun to give the appearance that they have always been right about their ability to achieve their singular date-of-hire goal:

"As discussed in our previous litigation status report on November 3rd, it is notoriously difficult to win a motion to dismiss because, as a general rule, the court must accept all of the plaintiff’s allegations as if they were true (since the plaintiff has not yet had the opportunity to obtain more evidence through the discovery process). In rendering his decision, Judge Wake adhered to this rule. The Order observes that “the East Pilots are alleged to have targeted the Nicolau Award in a way that gives scant consideration to the West pilots’ interest.†The decision also notes that: “The Plaintiff West Pilots allege that USAPA has followed through on that aim without any corresponding benefit to the pilots as a whole.†(Order at 10 and 11). Judge Wake appears to have decided that the Plaintiffs should have the opportunity to attempt to prove these allegations in an evidentiary trial. Of course, USAPA categorically rejects the Plaintiffs’ allegations. It has been held that DOH seniority integration advances the interests of the labor movement. Indeed, AFA, the TWU and the IAM have all proceeded with seniority integration on this basis. Furthermore, the USAPA Merger Committee gave extensive consideration of the West Pilots’ interests by proposing conditions and restrictions offering protection of their positions – thereby significantly diminishing the ability of most East Pilot’s to fully exercise their seniority – for a period of ten years. None of these other unions have looked after the interests of their West members in this manner.USAPA remains convinced that the facts and the law support our position. We ask our members for their continued support during the course of this litigation. USAPA also continues to encourage West pilots who have not yet done so to join the Association so that they can have greater participation in the formulation of USAPA policy."

But wait. What was that from the 21st update again? Let's compare that with what USAPA said on September 5th immediately after we first filed our litigation:

"Our law firm has completed a preliminary review of the Verified Complaint and determined that it has no legal merit whatsoever. Moreover, it is the law firm’s opinion that the Verified Complaint betrays substantial ignorance of the Railway Labor Act, as reflected by the absence of appropriate statutory citation, the use of terminology not recognized under the RLA, and the use of terms inappropriately borrowed from non-RLA labor law. . .the Plaintiffs will find it impossible to demonstrate that USAPA acted outside the wide range of reasonableness to which unions are entitled given the fact that the USAPA Constitution’s policy objectives are identical to those adopted by most major airline labor unions – including the AFA, IAM, and TWU – and that this policy objective has been recognized by the federal courts as being in the interest of the labor movement as a whole."

One has to wonder who it is that actually “betrays substantial ignorance of the Railway Labor Act,â€as Seham and Bradford had accused the West attorneys. Furthermore, one must wonder if it were not the fundamental premise of USAPA which “has no legal merit whatsoever,†(another boasting that is now biting back). It also appears that the judge does not seem too interested in the policies of the “AFA, IAM, and TWU.†And as for USAPA's assertion that, “Case precedent confirms that the seniority integration will be resolved at the negotiating table, not in a federal court,†well... let's just ask the judge about that as well.

Have a great Thanksgiving with your family and friends.

 

[hp_fa]

Phoenix,

In the previous week's topic you posted that essentially you bet that Judge Wake voted for Obama. While that may or not be true I just wanted to let you know that Judge Wake was appointed as a federal judge by George W. Bush. A brief biography can be found here.

 

[Tiger 1050]

It has been held that DOH seniority integration advances the interests of the labor movement. Indeed, AFA, the TWU and the IAM have all proceeded with seniority integration on this basis.

That's just it! This dispute is not about the validity of a DOH policy. It is about keeping the agreement you signed on for. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE had a problem with ALPA merger policy until the award came out...

Furthermore, the USAPA Merger Committee gave extensive consideration of the West Pilots’ interests...

Was it not revealed during cross examination on the 29th that Mr. Mowrey DID NOT in fact consider the west in his crafting of the C&R's in the DOH list?

 

[Tiger 1050]

From Judge Wake's ruling...

Page 5 Lines 21-27.

"The chairman of the committee testified that the policy was designed to address the pre-merger career expectations of each pilot group, but he also admitted on cross-examination that he never considered the impact that this policy would have on the West Pilots. The chairman also admitted that in formulating the policy, he gave no consideration to the relative financial condition of each of the merging airlines, or to the fact that many East Pilots were on furlough status at the time of the merger."

Concerning USAPA's "update."

I picture a child holding his hands to his ears screaming "it's not true! it's not true! it's not true!"

 

[tazz]

The silence is deafening now that everyone has read the judge's report. I am quite optimistic that justice will prevail. But what do I know, I am just a rookie from the west.

Tiger, I get that same picture in my mind as well.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Concerning USAPA's "update."

I picture a child holding his hands to his ears screaming "it's not true! it's not true! it's not true!"

Kind of like the westies have been since April 17?

 

[cleardirect]

Having worked in the Litigation Support end of things, based on my observations most Judges will allow a complaint to go to discovery where in the course of discovery a settlement will often be reached.

I don't see any settlement here. However once the legal bills start rolling in during discovery you can't be sure. A company or union starts paying for support services like copying, imaging, paralegals and multiple attorneys that meter starts spinning pretty fast especially if one side tries to "wallpaper" the other.

Piney,

Currently USAPA has three separate cases going.

The litigation that is in front of judge Wake.

The appeal against the 18 individual defendants charged with RICO.

The Empire/trump DOH suit to reorder the east list. By the way USAPA assigned 7 lawyers to that case.

Possibly a malicious intent counter suit if they continue this silliness in state court.

I would guess that the legal meter at USAPA is spinning like the electric meter at the Griswalds on Christmas eve. When this case hits discovery in mid December and early January the USAPA legal dollar meter might just spin off it’s bearings.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Kind of like the westies have been since April 17?

On the contrary friend. It was the east that began the childish ways when the Nic came out. If you can't remember it was around May of 07. CIRP. Pulled all the funds out of the SPC to fund CIRP. 60's style sit-in at the ALPA headquarters. Anger boiling over in a van. Removal of the Negotiating Committee. Successful campaign to remove ALPA. Shall I go on?

 

[Piedmont1984]

On the contrary friend. It was the east that began the childish ways when the Nic came out. If you can't remember it was around May of 07. CIRP. Pulled all the funds out of the SPC to fund CIRP. 60's style sit-in at the ALPA headquarters. Anger boiling over in a van. Removal of the Negotiating Committee. Successful campaign to remove ALPA. Shall I go on?

AWAPPA and AOL declare war. Jumpseat denial. USAPA phone lines deliberately jammed. Obscene text and phone messages. Bag stickers with slurs. Anger boiling over. Shall I go on?

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

AWAPPA and AOL declare war. Jumpseat denial. USAPA phone lines deliberately jammed. Obscene text and phone messages. Bag stickers with slurs. Anger boiling over. Shall I go on?

Yea? Well you started it!!! So there!!! :angry:

Just kidding - not admitting any guilt or pointing any fingers, but childish behavior has not been unique to either group.

Fortunately, cooler heads do exist on both sides and the real issues are moving through the courts. There may even be a day arrive when we will actually work together toward a common cause.

I see a watered down usapa in the future and I also see a hobbled west. What I mean with this is that usapa will have to move off of its DOH stance and any joint contract will obviously result in more benefit increases for the east.

At that point we will then have the perfect scenario: both sides equally peed off together. And who knows, we could even p. the company off if we plane drivers can all get together - maybe not on the same page, but at least in the same chapter.....LOL.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Lets hope.

 

[nycbusdriver]

On the contrary friend. It was the east that began the childish ways when the Nic came out. If you can't remember it was around May of 07. CIRP. Pulled all the funds out of the SPC to fund CIRP. 60's style sit-in at the ALPA headquarters. Anger boiling over in a van. Removal of the Negotiating Committee. Successful campaign to remove ALPA. Shall I go on?

What? After Prater told them the Nic award was flawed but he wouldn't do anything about it you expect they're going to sing "99 Bottles of Beer" in the van ride home?

 

[BoeingBoy]

What? After Prater told them the Nic award was flawed

As I recall, Prater didn't say flawed but rather that he knew that the Nic list presented a problem when he saw it.

Prater discussing Nic problem

If Prater or the EC had admitted that the Nic list was flawed, having it thrown out (in court if necessary) would have been a slam dunk...

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

On the contrary friend. It was the east that began the childish ways when the Nic came out. If you can't remember it was around May of 07. CIRP. Pulled all the funds out of the SPC to fund CIRP. 60's style sit-in at the ALPA headquarters. Anger boiling over in a van. Removal of the Negotiating Committee. Successful campaign to remove ALPA. Shall I go on?

Please do.. let's rehash the whole story part by part. I especially enjoy the "fair and equitable" part. Can you start with that one? Please! Please!