That's just who he is..........
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That's just who he is..........
Well, here we are on the morning after, and nothing has really changed.
I reread the PHX update and although they missed the dismissal by about 6 months or more, it looks like this is the future path:
"Path Two, Option A:
Judge Silver hears the case in 2013. She rules that the company must use the Nicolau award. USAPA will most certainly appeal that ruling to the Ninth Circuit. Again, we estimate that it will take AT LEAST another year to hear the appeal. If the Ninth upholds the ruling we will expect USAPA to appeal to the Supreme Court. This too can take considerable time. Another possibility would be that the Ninth Circuit kicks the case back to the District Court for "further work." How long could that take?
Total delay from the beginning of the merger to decide seniority: 8-10 years
Path 2, Option B:
This would be Doug's worse imaginable outcome. Judge Silver hears the case and decides the company is not required to use the Nicolau arbitrated award. It is unlikely that the company would appeal, but they could. The company has stated in court that they do not have a negotiating position on seniority, so it stands to reason that they would have to develop one. How long would that take? We do not know, but it certainly means more delay. This puts the company in the position of deciding fairness, yet through this entire failed merger Doug has been claiming neutrality. What happens next? Do the east managers sit down at the table with east pilots only, east and west pilots, or west pilots only? Since there are no west pilots on the NAC or Merger Committees, it is more than likely that only east pilots will determine what the seniority list would be. We know USAPA is constitutionally obligated to present DOH, but what will the company present? Will it be the Nicolau since that is the list the company has accepted? Will they finally accept DOH? Will the company present its own creation, perhaps a hybrid list of the two? Will the company propose its own set of fences, restrictions and conditions? We do know that whatever the company comes up with, it is going to be financially beneficial to them, and certainly not to the pilots. How long will it take to work out a negotiated list and acceptable conditions and restrictions (if that is even possible)?
Total delay from the beginning of the merger to decide seniority: 9-? Years.
At the end of option B, the West pilots would be presented with a seniority list that we likely had no input in the creation of, and in any case would probably not be the Nicolau Award. So, standing at the end of the company DJ and a negotiated seniority list will be the West pilots with an "unquestionably ripe" DFR lawsuit. This starts the legal process all over again raising uncertainty about the newly negotiated seniority list, with the possibility of an injunction that might prevent the contract from being implemented. That could mean no pay raise or any of the other needed contractual improvements for anyone while the DFR process runs its course again.
Total delay from the time of the merger to decide seniority: 10-20 years."
The PHX reps see 8 years as the shortest resolution, and that doesn't include ratifying a contract. I just wonder if Doug has an escape plan for this thing if a deal comes along that he wants to take. Until then, we slog along, nothing has really changed unless reform usapa has gotten the support to storm the CLT offices and have a revolt.
I reread the PHX update and although they missed the dismissal by about 6 months or more, it looks like this is the future path:
"Path Two, Option A:
Judge Silver hears the case in 2013. She rules that the company must use the Nicolau award. USAPA will most certainly appeal that ruling to the Ninth Circuit. Again, we estimate that it will take AT LEAST another year to hear the appeal. If the Ninth upholds the ruling we will expect USAPA to appeal to the Supreme Court. This too can take considerable time. Another possibility would be that the Ninth Circuit kicks the case back to the District Court for "further work." How long could that take?
Total delay from the beginning of the merger to decide seniority: 8-10 years
Path 2, Option B:
This would be Doug's worse imaginable outcome. Judge Silver hears the case and decides the company is not required to use the Nicolau arbitrated award. It is unlikely that the company would appeal, but they could. The company has stated in court that they do not have a negotiating position on seniority, so it stands to reason that they would have to develop one. How long would that take? We do not know, but it certainly means more delay. This puts the company in the position of deciding fairness, yet through this entire failed merger Doug has been claiming neutrality. What happens next? Do the east managers sit down at the table with east pilots only, east and west pilots, or west pilots only? Since there are no west pilots on the NAC or Merger Committees, it is more than likely that only east pilots will determine what the seniority list would be. We know USAPA is constitutionally obligated to present DOH, but what will the company present? Will it be the Nicolau since that is the list the company has accepted? Will they finally accept DOH? Will the company present its own creation, perhaps a hybrid list of the two? Will the company propose its own set of fences, restrictions and conditions? We do know that whatever the company comes up with, it is going to be financially beneficial to them, and certainly not to the pilots. How long will it take to work out a negotiated list and acceptable conditions and restrictions (if that is even possible)?
Total delay from the beginning of the merger to decide seniority: 9-? Years.
At the end of option B, the West pilots would be presented with a seniority list that we likely had no input in the creation of, and in any case would probably not be the Nicolau Award. So, standing at the end of the company DJ and a negotiated seniority list will be the West pilots with an "unquestionably ripe" DFR lawsuit. This starts the legal process all over again raising uncertainty about the newly negotiated seniority list, with the possibility of an injunction that might prevent the contract from being implemented. That could mean no pay raise or any of the other needed contractual improvements for anyone while the DFR process runs its course again.
Total delay from the time of the merger to decide seniority: 10-20 years."
The PHX reps see 8 years as the shortest resolution, and that doesn't include ratifying a contract. I just wonder if Doug has an escape plan for this thing if a deal comes along that he wants to take. Until then, we slog along, nothing has really changed unless reform usapa has gotten the support to storm the CLT offices and have a revolt.
Metroyet
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I know that mass cognitive dissonance has reached the point where reality is fundamentally warped for you guys but when one makes a statement"
"give me what I want or I'll destroy you"
that is considered a terroristic threat...not just a simple bargaining proposal
A320 Driver
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I know that mass cognitive dissonance has reached the point where reality is fundamentally warped for you guys but when one makes a statement"
"give me what I want or I'll destroy you"
that is considered a terroristic threat...not just a simple bargaining proposal
Do you often have these feelings that everyone is against you? When you read things, do you often look at them in the most negative light?
Then:
"You're in more dire need of a b*** j** than any white man in history!"
BTW, I had to look up "mass cognitive dissonance"... still not sure how it fits into your statement.
Driver 😀
cleardirect
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WHY? Why do some soul searching?
The west knows that we are right about binding arbitration and keeping your word. We have known from day one. Besides have you east guys not been telling us that the court is going to decide this thing? Well that court has taken this case and is going to decide this thing. Trying to change the rules again? Not live up to your statements again?
This time the case is against the company. They don't have to go work to collect donations. They also have much deeper pockets than usapa. Plus Cleary, I mean usapa just filed another multi million dollar lawsuit against the company. Tell me what union services are you willing to give up to pay for what could be $2-3-4 million in legal fees? That is 20-30-40% of your union dues going to lawyers. No training committee? Shut down grievance since granny can't seem to complete a single grievance?
The court will settle this. Let's sit back and watch the show, it could be several years. No deals now. Let's see what kind of arguments Seham has in front of yet another judge.
A320 Driver
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Seems like you are trying to make a rational proposal, however, as noted in the last 2000 pages of this thread, it won't work.
So, how about this? The east takes the 6 year fence they have imposed to date, adds to it 2 more years while this works its way through the courts and the pilot group, and we call it good and move forward? Your other option is to press it further, and have the West win bump and flush as part of remedy.
Metroyet
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I think we all know the answer to that..."sniff...sniff....but....It's not...fair" 🙄
Piedmont1984
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A few other options.
Option A. If Kasher rules our way most in the east will no longer care how long it takes to resolve in the courts. Separate operations, which is a virtual fence, with decent pay, will be the reality till many of us retire.
Option B. If we lose LOA93 there will be a card drive. USAPA won the election by a margin of hundreds. In the last three years that margin has eroded. Your guess is as good as mine regarding how much. If ALPA returns it will be the Nic in relatively short order.
Option C. Merger. Bring out your tea leaves, crystal balls and ouiji boards.
Option D. We lose LOA93 but USAPA survives a representational election. See PHX timeline.
If we remain stand alone then under Option A or B we will know what the remainder of our careers will look like pretty quick. I don't see this group having to wait 8+ years to end game. Same for Option C, it will be fast and ugly. I would say one of the first three options will preempt and predate the PHX timeline.
FWIW
Option A. If Kasher rules our way most in the east will no longer care how long it takes to resolve in the courts. Separate operations, which is a virtual fence, with decent pay, will be the reality till many of us retire.
Option B. If we lose LOA93 there will be a card drive. USAPA won the election by a margin of hundreds. In the last three years that margin has eroded. Your guess is as good as mine regarding how much. If ALPA returns it will be the Nic in relatively short order.
Option C. Merger. Bring out your tea leaves, crystal balls and ouiji boards.
Option D. We lose LOA93 but USAPA survives a representational election. See PHX timeline.
If we remain stand alone then under Option A or B we will know what the remainder of our careers will look like pretty quick. I don't see this group having to wait 8+ years to end game. Same for Option C, it will be fast and ugly. I would say one of the first three options will preempt and predate the PHX timeline.
FWIW
Could you explain to me how DOH is any more safe than the Nic.
I would expect that if the Nic is ultimately the seniority list (and every indication to date says it will be), that if usapa then took out a USA Today ad forecasting dire consequences, it would be game over for any usapa officer who approved, ordered, wrote, or had any involvement with said ad.
No judge will award you "bump and flush". That would injure a third party. It would cost the company a huge amount in training.
Beancounter
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HaHa
Thanks I needed a laugh while I'm taking a break from studying cash flows/accounting. You mentioned soul searching, I know I did some after Captain Sullenberger spoke out against the seniority award. I have a great deal of respect for him and I already knew some parts of the award were unfair. Given the choice between the unfair Nicolau or unfair DOH, it's a no brainer, fight for the Nicolau. 3 west negatives 😉
767jetz
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It absolutely boggles the mind that USAPA supporters are not more critical of their leadership and the decisions being made. Easy enough to shrug it off as "idiots," but I'm not sure if there isn't any other explanation. Perhaps total desperation, ego at all cost, or maybe even calculated stonewalling at the cost of millions. At some point even that strategy reaches the level of diminishing returns, where the cost in dollars is higher than the gain. Who knows?
But what is a fact on this site is that the bravado of the east is nothing but hot air and diversion, with nothing to show as results except the status quo. Every time line has come and gone. Every attempt at intimidation has fallen on it's face. (RICO, identity theft, etc.) Every court action has been a failure. Sleezam has been out maneuvered by AOL and now the company. Even the 9th, which only gave them a stay of execution, has been mis-interpreted time and again as some victory.
We should bookmark this one, to be brought up again when the usual suspects start with the "spanking" and "schooling" comments in the next volley which is sure to come in this continuing saga.
A320 Driver
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HaHa
You mentioned soul searching, I know I did some after Captain Sullenberger spoke out against the seniority award. I have a great deal of respect for him and I already knew some parts of the award were unfair. Given the choice between the unfair Nicolau or unfair DOH, it's a no brainer, fight for the Nicolau. 3 west negatives 😉
Good job Beancounter...
The education is paying off.
Driver 😀
The company is not a third party in a hybrid DFR. The company would be what is called a defendant! That is why they filed their DJ, they do not prescribe to the Seeham theory of seniority theft, and want no part of being tied to usapa and Seeham's losing theories in any future DFR trial. In other words, while the east may feel they have nothing to lose and continues to press all these ridiculous motions and lawsuits, the company stands to lose hundreds of millions.
The cost would be substantially less than paying West pilots back to Aug 2008, and paying them what their position could hold, while allowing them to maintain their current position, while simultaneously paying someone else full pay to occupy that position.
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