US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

The cost would be substantially less than paying West pilots back to Aug 2008, and paying them what their position could hold, while allowing them to maintain their current position, while simultaneously paying someone else full pay to occupy that position.

Somewhere there is a crew news that's missing their raincoat.

 

[767one]

To give some of you guys and gals a glimpse of the safety/mechanical issues we are having on the East, here is a list of MELs on the 767 we picked up in Europe today. (all legit, and keep in mind this was an 8.5 hr Atlantic ETOPS flight)

APU
L Eng Fire Loop2
Aft Cargo Door Hinge
Rt Aft Fuel Pump (had to haul an extra 8500 lbs of unusable fuel around)
Fwd Zone Trim Air (manually controlled the unstable temp)
Left Transponder

Needless to say, the logbook was very colorful.

On top of all this, when we got to the aircraft, we found that the R1 door slide had dislodged about 16". After spending a couple of hours trying to locate another slide, with no luck, team Tempe decided to MEL the slide and remove it from the aircraft. So......that means that we had to block all seats that might need that exit.....everything from row 9 forward, including 1st class.......59 seats.

Bottom line.....we left 4 hrs late, limping home in a piece of crap airplane, tankering an extra 8500 lbs of unusable fuel, with 145 passengers instead of bringing a full aircraft at 204 peeps.

What an operation! <_<

Mr. Breeze,

They will probably try to run the mel's to the time limit and then try for an extension. But looking at the bright side all that mel reading was good practice for the next CQT! Not long ago I had a center fuel pump on mel ..much more restrictive and ended up leaving a bunch of pax behind. That was after they tried to get me to take the aircraft to PHX with a planned arrival fuel of 6500# While we were "discussing" the issue with dispatch we watched the fueler overfuel the aircraft and as soon as it was overfueled to where we wanted the fuel then we had the fueler stop.

I hope you took a picture of that logbook to send to Doug!


Regards,


Bob

 

[Beancounter]

MELs? I've got a good story. First flight as captain at a commuter. Unpressurized, 1-boost pump, 1-SRL computer, DFW to BIL(Billings MT) with a fed in the jump seat. On about the third time of me trying to explain over the phone to dispatch that I couldn't be filed on jet airways the fed took the phone and started screaming. Ended well and the fed was mad at the company not me, but it took about ten years off my life.

 

[767jetz]

How about this? We accept the NIC, but then add enough restrictions in the contract to take the teeth out of it. That OK? You have the NIC and East gets their attrition. Lock the East pilots out of PHX (unless the vacancies go unwanted) and lock the PHX pilots out of the Captain slots in PHL and CLT (unless they too are unwanted).

Simple... Take some 330s (new deliveries) and stick them in PHX.

Do that and you can have your precious NIC. We just want the attrition we brought to the party.

There will be a compromise boys and girls or we will ALL be looking for work.

Driver B)

yes...but here's the catch: the West alone determines what is fair for both East and West. Deal?

I tossed that out there with the first cup of coffee and I got 4 responses:

3 East- all negative

1 West- positive with conditions (probably a deal breaker for most).

Kinda tells you where we are. Wouldn't hurt for everyone to do some soul searching before round two starts.

Driver B)

A320 Driver,

Your first post above sounds similar to what some have said here for at least a couple of years now. Obviously USAPA wanted nothing to do with it. What makes you think the east would want it now? (Serious question) I have said since day one, why not put a decent contract with a few tweaks to protect attrition and widebody flying, but was bashed from every east direction for uttering such a suggestion. Plus many see the Nic as already protecting your attrition by giving the east 2/3 of the upgrades, which is about what you brought to the table considering pilots on SL and those who would retire from furlough or a junior right seat position.

The fact that you are getting negative comments from east posters shows that this thing is being driven by the junior core of pilots who were furloughed for a good portion of their careers, yet decided to tough it out hoping to one day recover what they have lost.

As for soul searching, IMO that is exactly what a lot of east pilots are now doing in the face of this recent development, along with Cleary's unilateral filing of yet another law suit with no oversight whatsoever. Maybe now is a good time for a vote. Maybe it's time for Reform USAPA to "storm CLT" and do exactly what you suggested, while allowing the west to determine what conditions be acceptable without triggering DFRII.

I can't really say that I blame the west for digging in their heals. It is the east who has pounded them for years now, enduring the name calling, and the bullying with Rico suits and such. This latest loss by Seham sheds some more light on the position the courts might take. Combine that with the way you (the east collectively) have treated the west and you've given them little reason to not follow through.

Whatever happens, this is definitely a game changer and might just move the ball down field a bit.

 

[jetjok1]

What happened to the clown references. Did the good Dr. finally get through to you? 😀

Just another name caller......Have no use for these types......there's better ways to get your point across.

 

[Pi brat]

The cost would be substantially less than paying West pilots back to Aug 2008, and paying them what their position could hold, while allowing them to maintain their current position, while simultaneously paying someone else full pay to occupy that position.

I always get lost as to why you guys think any damages would go back to 2008. We are still operating under the TA, and the TA calls for separate ops until a ratified joint contract. There is no way to say when/if that would happen, so you don't have damages until the contract is done, and THEN USAPA keeps you from getting what you are able to have under Nic. Parker said just that in the pancho crew news. But, I could be wrong.......Anyway, barring some other dismissal, this case goes to court and the company finds all the answers to their burning questions and is removed from DFR II, right? Then we just go through the appeal to SFO, the Supreme Court, get a contract and get it ratified, THEN if you guys think you have been unfairly represented, you file DFR II against the union only. That is if there are any of us left that care and the company is still around. :huh:

 

[mrbreeze]

Oh,c'mon now . Those things where a piece of crap long before Parker ever got his hands on them . And what's with this "Team Tempe" discrptive.You sound like a bunch of efn flight attendants for crys sake.cv

The piont, Einstien, is that the maintanence is being deferred for too long.

The 76's are normally good flying machines despite their ages....but they do have to be maintained like any other jet.

team Tempe? It's certainly no one else making those decisions....that's why it's called management.


Bob,

I do have the pictures....just didn't think I should post them here. 😉

 

[A320 Driver]

A320 Driver,

Your first post above sounds similar to what some have said here for at least a couple of years now. Obviously USAPA wanted nothing to do with it. What makes you think the east would want it now? (Serious question) I have said since day one, why not put a decent contract with a few tweaks to protect attrition and widebody flying, but was bashed from every east direction for uttering such a suggestion. Plus many see the Nic as already protecting your attrition by giving the east 2/3 of the upgrades, which is about what you brought to the table considering pilots on SL and those who would retire from furlough or a junior right seat position.

The fact that you are getting negative comments from east posters shows that this thing is being driven by the junior core of pilots who were furloughed for a good portion of their careers, yet decided to tough it out hoping to one day recover what they have lost.

As for soul searching, IMO that is exactly what a lot of east pilots are now doing in the face of this recent development, along with Cleary's unilateral filing of yet another law suit with no oversight whatsoever. Maybe now is a good time for a vote. Maybe it's time for Reform USAPA to "storm CLT" and do exactly what you suggested, while allowing the west to determine what conditions be acceptable without triggering DFRII.

I can't really say that I blame the west for digging in their heals. It is the east who has pounded them for years now, enduring the name calling, and the bullying with Rico suits and such. This latest loss by Seham sheds some more light on the position the courts might take. Combine that with the way you (the east collectively) have treated the west and you've given them little reason to not follow through.

Whatever happens, this is definitely a game changer and might just move the ball down field a bit.

Jetz,
I just threw it out there to see if there was any room for compromise at this point or any good will left. Answer is NO on both counts. I never claimed it was original thinking but did represent some middle ground if everyone was as honest as they say they are. East claims all they want is their attrition...West, to save the PHX jobs. I think you can read into the posts that neither side is satisfied with that.

Just another day in paradise dude!

Driver B)

 

[prechilill]

Jetz,
I never claimed it was original thinking but did represent some middle ground if everyone was as honest as they say they are. Driver B)

You mean, middle ground to the already arbitrated middle ground...
That's the problem with you people- your perspectives are greatly skewed and for us on the west we cannot trust you, especially your opinoin as to what constitutes "middle ground". Besides, it's a little late to "find middle ground", that time has long since passed and when you think about the travesty you and your fellow pilots have tossed our way there is little interest in the west of giving up anything to help you guys now. Bradford and his traveling circus were so smug when they showed up to PHX basically saying DOH is on its way with a contract in 90 days- how is that working out? LOL Any contract improvements will benefit the east almost entirely since your NB pay is so low and your working conditions are horrible. Personally, I don't like to see people have to endure LOA93 but you chose this path so for me it is pretty easy to just shrug it all off. Realistically nothing has changed in my life since the day this merger happened and I am more than happy to keep the status quo now that retirements are kicking in next year. The west will have their attrition, especially if we move above fleet minimums like you guys have enjoyed and it will only get better for us from here. Give it another five years, this thing will be finished because there won't be many of you left standing (assuming the airline is independent at that point).

 

[Barrister]

I always get lost as to why you guys think any damages would go back to 2008. We are still operating under the TA, and the TA calls for separate ops until a ratified joint contract. There is no way to say when/if that would happen, so you don't have damages until the contract is done, and THEN USAPA keeps you from getting what you are able to have under Nic. Parker said just that in the pancho crew news. But, I could be wrong.......Anyway, barring some other dismissal, this case goes to court and the company finds all the answers to their burning questions and is removed from DFR II, right? Then we just go through the appeal to SFO, the Supreme Court, get a contract and get it ratified, THEN if you guys think you have been unfairly represented, you file DFR II against the union only. That is if there are any of us left that care and the company is still around. :huh:

Hey PI won't this thing wind up back in front of the 9th if Silver says
you gotta use NIC..?????

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[A320 Driver]

You mean, middle ground to the already arbitrated middle ground...
That's the problem with you people- your perspectives are greatly skewed and for us on the west we cannot trust you, especially your opinoin as to what constitutes "middle ground". Besides, it's a little late to "find middle ground", that time has long since passed and when you think about the travesty you and your fellow pilots have tossed our way there is little interest in the west of giving up anything to help you guys now. Bradford and his traveling circus were so smug when they showed up to PHX basically saying DOH is on its way with a contract in 90 days- how is that working out? LOL Any contract improvements will benefit the east almost entirely since your NB pay is so low and your working conditions are horrible. Personally, I don't like to see people have to endure LOA93 but you chose this path so for me it is pretty easy to just shrug it all off. Realistically nothing has changed in my life since the day this merger happened and I am more than happy to keep the status quo now that retirements are kicking in next year. The west will have their attrition, especially if we move above fleet minimums like you guys have enjoyed and it will only get better for us from here. Give it another five years, this thing will be finished because there won't be many of you left standing (assuming the airline is independent at that point).

I rest my case...

 

[snapthis]

You mean, middle ground to the already arbitrated middle ground...
That's the problem with you people- your perspectives are greatly skewed and for us on the west we cannot trust you, especially your opinoin as to what constitutes "middle ground". Besides, it's a little late to "find middle ground", that time has long since passed and when you think about the travesty you and your fellow pilots have tossed our way there is little interest in the west of giving up anything to help you guys now. Bradford and his traveling circus were so smug when they showed up to PHX basically saying DOH is on its way with a contract in 90 days- how is that working out? LOL

There were two camps with most of this crowd. Screw the West with Prater and company or with USAPA. He's in the ALPA camp and not too popular with the Usapians. I don't trust any of them and the time for compromise is over. It ended after they tried to unbind binding arbitration.

I'm ready to see them back in Phoenix again, this time answering to Judge Silver.

 

[Freebird]

I always get lost as to why you guys think any damages would go back to 2008. We are still operating under the TA, and the TA calls for separate ops until a ratified joint contract. There is no way to say when/if that would happen, so you don't have damages until the contract is done, and THEN USAPA keeps you from getting what you are able to have under Nic. Parker said just that in the pancho crew news. But, I could be wrong.......Anyway, barring some other dismissal, this case goes to court and the company finds all the answers to their burning questions and is removed from DFR II, right? Then we just go through the appeal to SFO, the Supreme Court, get a contract and get it ratified, THEN if you guys think you have been unfairly represented, you file DFR II against the union only. That is if there are any of us left that care and the company is still around. :huh:

All because you lack the Integrity to honor your agreements.

I'd be pissed if I were an 25 year East F/O working under LOA93 for the past several years, drinking the USAPA Kool-Aid, and having nothing to show for it. Wasted time. Lost Income. The USAPA way.


USAPA = The anti-democracy

 

[Black Swan]

Hey PI won't this thing wind up back in front of the 9th if Silver says
you gotta use NIC..?????

NICDOA
NPJB

Lets' hope she does it. This group just does not get the fact the 9th will do exactly what they did with Wake.

 

[Metroyet]

Lets' hope she does it. This group just does not get the fact the 9th will do exactly what they did with Wake.

Apples and Oranges.....

SPANK!!!!!