US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Beancounter]

Very good points Sparrowhawk. Took some time to look through the F&H portfolio. One name jumped out- Todd Jewitt. Todd was formerly on the USAirways payroll, and we had to deal with him on numerous contract issues, bid issues in the past. He is now working with Glass. I have been convinced for a long time that LOA 93 was drawn up by Glass and Co. long before the bankruptcy issues came to the fore. The elements of it were not drawn up at the last minute, and were crafted prior to the opportunity presented itself to lay it on hard. LOA 93 is far too deep reaching to have been a last minute write up. It is far, too reaching. So, if Glass is on the payroll as a consultant, you are correct. It would take a unified group to take him on effectively. He absolutely thrives in this environment, and will exploit it as would Patton exploit an enemies confusion in the field of battle. He has exactly what he had for the last battle, a divided group. He will prevail in this environment. The only way to defeat him, and this is what you have to do, go to war with him, is to unify. There is absolutely no other way. The only way you will reach a quick an decent deal is if they want to merge or do a deal here, and need a quick settlement to get their cash. The move for clarification by Parker was in the Glass playbook. No matter what either east or west thinks, this was a pure stall job.

While I agree Parker is happy having you at LOA 93 wages, I disagree that he doesn't want one pilot group. He wants another merger and having one pilot group will help to bring in outside capital and if the snapback clause is gone he doesn't have to have to worry about calling an acquisition a merger. Parker isn't trying to stall by going to the courts, he just can read. The 9th said USAPA is free to negotiate as long as it is in good faith. Parker and US Airways legal department isn't stupid. If they mess with the Nic the suite is ripe. Is the Nic fair? No, it was a total windfall for guys like me and your senior pilots. I can't change that list though and I'm sorry but I don't think you can either. If you want to blame someone for holding up unity and a new contract look to USAPA. To me it is starting to seem that the majority of the east is ok with their current contract. That's ok I get it, you want the attrition. If USAPA's goal is to keep the pilot group separate until their junior members can take advantage of attrition you can't blame the company in turn for taking advantage of these same pilots. Of course Parker isn't going to give you pay parity until you give him one pilot group that will in turn help him with his goal of an acquisition or merger.

 

[Barrister]

The reason I've been visiting this cyber cesspool of responsible adults behaving badly lately is to somehow raise awareness at least that you are your own worst enemy and that it's long past time for the pissing contest to cease and have the focus of the considerable amount of bile and venom being spewed forth directed at US Airways Sr Management who IMO orchestrated this whole thing with the express purpose of keeping you divided and against each other. It's frankly good business for Parker.

I found it along time ago I think on a 10-K form. Here's the truth. Everyday you as a workgroup are paid below the industry standard is a day that Doug Parker's Bonus gets bigger. Lower labor costs are right in his compensation plan along with the other Sr Executives. You now have F & H Solutions Group back in your workplace. For those who may not know or recall, F & H Solutions Group is a Union Buster Law Firm and Labor relations consultant. Here are a few links,

Jerry Glass Bio

F & H Solutions Group

Not only is Mr Glass on the property but his firm works with several top union busting firms. The whole pilot squabble has Jerry Glass written all over it IMO. People got bad advice at merger time and one can only wonder where that advice came from directly or indirectly. Truth is NO ONE wants to believe their employer would engage in such underhanded crap. However truth is it happens HOURLY across America, all day every day. Union Busting Attorney's and consultants break the law in nearly every Labor negotiation. They get away with it because it costs to much time and money for the union to litigate. The ONLY weapon that the union has is the Solidarity of its membership.

It really is time for the infighting to be over and for a unified Pilots Group to speak out and be heard. You folks have the power to shut down US Airways in a New York minute if you are one. As it stands now you're the character in the Dicken's novel Oliver Twist who asks "Please Sir may I have some more". IOW you're beggars at the banquet table. WHY? look in the mirror. Then ask yourself how you would answer your Kids if they asked "Daddy, how come you make so much less then the DL pilots?"
[/quote

You are right but overall wrong......this is 95% the result of an arbitrator who used the financial position of
US Airways to bias the East pilots in the extreme. Where else ON THIS EARTH......would it have been ok
to place NUMEROUS NEW HIRES senior to 16-17 year NEVER furloughed pilots who took MASSIVE pay
cuts to keep this dog in the air and then lost their pension as well. THIS IS IN THE LAP OF NIC....
we are just the casualties.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Black Swan]

While I agree Parker is happy having you at LOA 93 wages, I disagree that he doesn't want one pilot group. He wants another merger and having one pilot group will help to bring in outside capital and if the snapback clause is gone he doesn't have to have to worry about calling an acquisition a merger. Parker isn't trying to stall by going to the courts, he just can read. The 9th said USAPA is free to negotiate as long as it is in good faith. Parker and US Airways legal department isn't stupid. If they mess with the Nic the suite is ripe. Is the Nic fair? No, it was a total windfall for guys like me and your senior pilots. I can't change that list though and I'm sorry but I don't think you can either. If you want to blame someone for holding up unity and a new contract look to USAPA. To me it is starting to seem that the majority of the east is ok with their current contract. That's ok I get it, you want the attrition. If USAPA's goal is to keep the pilot group separate until their junior members can take advantage of attrition you can't blame the company in turn for taking advantage of these same pilots. Of course Parker isn't going to give you pay parity until you give him one pilot group that will in turn help him with his goal of an acquisition or merger.

I found your viewpoint very interesting Beancounter.Do I feel the West pilots have reason to be angry? Absolutely. I will be honest and say had I been on your side of this, I would have been surprised at what I got, and angry I could not make it happen. As far as LOA 93 and the East pilots? I feel they are extremely angry with it. That anger coming from the stupid realization from those who voted for it to "save" the company, that their sacrifice was taken, and used to beat them over the head later, after the "trouble" was past. Personally, I voted no.I counsel everyone NEVER to take the first offer any way. And by the way, I honestly commended the west pilots at the time when I read you downed the first offer you were given some time ago, before this mess even transpired. Back to LOA 93- I think those who voted yes were those who honestly felt their sacrifice was necessary, and would be recognized. That is the trouble with being part of the transition while working with groups who actually valued you, to those who would use you. Simply, the East pilots who voted for it feel "had" and they are now going to follow all SOP s and FAR's to the letter. So, living under LOA 93 as some say is going to happen in perpetuity? Never going to happen.I don't think they will make it through the summer seeing the age of the people involved, and the anger they hold. There just is not that much to lose in their eyes. If Parker does not see this, he is going to have a long, hot summer. All a pilot has to do is follow the rules to a T, and this place is in big trouble. Nothing illegal, in fact just the opposite. Totally legal and above board. The way the FAA wants it done. All you have to do is operate your jet as if the FAA were in the jumpseat 24 /7, and it does not operate the way it used to. Not that I ever operated ANY other way. I see those who were on the "giver" side, now following the letter of the law in operating an airline. I really don't need to get specific about the particulars, but the west pilots absolutely understand what this means. Well, it is happening now. If you follow the letter of the law, the way it is written in airline ops. and FAR s- it can be extremely difficult to run an airline the way management is used to. They want you to carry things on, and it just is not going to happen.
I think there are enough people on both sides of this dispute that can actually agree, without name calling, that both sides have some very important arguments for their respective positions. It is just meeting at that middle ground that has to happen to then go on and beat the likes of Jerry Glass and Co. Any suggestions other than calling someone a scab or something like that?

 

[nevergiveup]

While I agree Parker is happy having you at LOA 93 wages, I disagree that he doesn't want one pilot group. He wants another merger and having one pilot group will help to bring in outside capital and if the snapback clause is gone he doesn't have to have to worry about calling an acquisition a merger. Parker isn't trying to stall by going to the courts, he just can read. The 9th said USAPA is free to negotiate as long as it is in good faith. Parker and US Airways legal department isn't stupid. If they mess with the Nic the suite is ripe. Is the Nic fair? No, it was a total windfall for guys like me and your senior pilots. I can't change that list though and I'm sorry but I don't think you can either. If you want to blame someone for holding up unity and a new contract look to USAPA. To me it is starting to seem that the majority of the east is ok with their current contract. That's ok I get it, you want the attrition. If USAPA's goal is to keep the pilot group separate until their junior members can take advantage of attrition you can't blame the company in turn for taking advantage of these same pilots. Of course Parker isn't going to give you pay parity until you give him one pilot group that will in turn help him with his goal of an acquisition or merger.

A problem I see is that if the NIC is used, American will be out of the picture. No one want a lot of young senior pilots as they are a permanent block to many careers.

 

[cactusboy53]

"You are right but overall wrong......this is 95% the result of an arbitrator who used the financial position of US Airways to bias the East pilots in the extreme. Where else ON THIS EARTH......would it have been ok to place NUMEROUS NEW HIRES senior to 16-17 year NEVER furloughed pilots who took MASSIVE pay
cuts to keep this dog in the air and then lost their pension as well. THIS IS IN THE LAP OF NIC....we are just the casualties."

Oh look, the rarely seen "it's not fair" argument again. What a surprise. Mediation & arbitration is the process that we ALL agreed upon. PERIOD. The perception that the list is flawed is just too darned bad. Frankly I think Randy McNerlin should have been PILOT #1. Instead, he was placed as pilot #518.

So tell me.....If Kasher comes back and says you get the front money, the back money, the money in between and interest money on all the money.........Parker cries "unfair", and changes the name of the company to Trans-Tempe Airways. He states that along with the new company name comes a clean slate regarding financial obligations. Too bad, how sad, talk to your Dad. Then what? Is final then final and binding then binding, or is Parker right?

You can't have it both ways Sporto. The fall from the promised DOH and Snap back is going to require a HUGE parachute for a soft landing. How big of a parachute do you have?

 

[aquagreen73s]

A problem I see is that if the NIC is used, American will be out of the picture. No one want a lot of young senior pilots as they are a permanent block to many careers.

Your logic is all backwards. AMR would have nothing to do with integrating lists that would take 89 hires who are deep in the F/O ranks and make them captains at AMR. Rather, they'd be quite receptive to the widebody preference given in the Nicolau:

777: 47
767-300: 58
767-200: 15
757: 124
MD80: 229
737-800: 153

The 47 777s are clearly in a league of their own. Under the Nic, 19 W/Bs resulted in 518 spots going East. (518/19)*47 = 1281. Then the ratio would start with the 58 767-300s versus a dozen or so 330s. Still ugly. Then there's the lopsided 757 fleet towards AMR's favor. If you're an AMR pilot, what's there not to love about the Nic?

 

[767one]

I found your viewpoint very interesting Beancounter.Do I feel the West pilots have reason to be angry? Absolutely. I will be honest and say had I been on your side of this, I would have been surprised at what I got, and angry I could not make it happen. As far as LOA 93 and the East pilots? I feel they are extremely angry with it. That anger coming from the stupid realization from those who voted for it to "save" the company, that their sacrifice was taken, and used to beat them over the head later, after the "trouble" was past. Personally, I voted no.I counsel everyone NEVER to take the first offer any way. And by the way, I honestly commended the west pilots at the time when I read you downed the first offer you were given some time ago, before this mess even transpired. Back to LOA 93- I think those who voted yes were those who honestly felt their sacrifice was necessary, and would be recognized. That is the trouble with being part of the transition while working with groups who actually valued you, to those who would use you. Simply, the East pilots who voted for it feel "had" and they are now going to follow all SOP s and FAR's to the letter. So, living under LOA 93 as some say is going to happen in perpetuity? Never going to happen.I don't think they will make it through the summer seeing the age of the people involved, and the anger they hold. There just is not that much to lose in their eyes. If Parker does not see this, he is going to have a long, hot summer. All a pilot has to do is follow the rules to a T, and this place is in big trouble. Nothing illegal, in fact just the opposite. Totally legal and above board. The way the FAA wants it done. All you have to do is operate your jet as if the FAA were in the jumpseat 24 /7, and it does not operate the way it used to. Not that I ever operated ANY other way. I see those who were on the "giver" side, now following the letter of the law in operating an airline. I really don't need to get specific about the particulars, but the west pilots absolutely understand what this means. Well, it is happening now. If you follow the letter of the law, the way it is written in airline ops. and FAR s- it can be extremely difficult to run an airline the way management is used to. They want you to carry things on, and it just is not going to happen.
I think there are enough people on both sides of this dispute that can actually agree, without name calling, that both sides have some very important arguments for their respective positions. It is just meeting at that middle ground that has to happen to then go on and beat the likes of Jerry Glass and Co. Any suggestions other than calling someone a scab or something like that?

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! Johnnie tell the man what he's won. Good post Black Swan. You have stated where we are at and how we got there very simply.


The name calling while it might provide some momentary satisfaction does nothing to help. It only furthers the animosity and does nothing to move things forward.


Regards,


Bob

 

[aquagreen73s]

The name calling while it might provide some momentary satisfaction does nothing to help. It only furthers the animosity and does nothing to move things forward.


Regards,


Bob

No Bob. I'll tell you what furthers the animosity - it's when a group uses it's majority to form its own union, and said union engages in repeated attacks against the minority, ie frivolous RICO suits (union against individuals), libelous attacks against West pilots when there is absolutely no evidence supporting such attacks and even if there were, it's still way out of line for a union to say what USAPA routinely says, tabling West grievances but then accelerate the one grievance that will screw the West, witch hunt depositions over anything and everything involving the West (will we see depos on the East pilots questioned by the company in address-gate???), section 29ing hundreds of pilots on the West and virtually ignoring the pilots on the East....

All way beyond your perceived transgressions of "name calling."

 

[SparrowHawk]

No Bob. I'll tell you what furthers the animosity - it's when a group uses it's majority to form its own union, and said union engages in repeated attacks against the minority, ie frivolous RICO suits (union against individuals), libelous attacks against West pilots when there is absolutely no evidence supporting such attacks and even if there were, it's still way out of line for a union to say what USAPA routinely says, tabling West grievances but then accelerate the one grievance that will screw the West, witch hunt depositions over anything and everything involving the West (will we see depos on the East pilots questioned by the company in address-gate???), section 29ing hundreds of pilots on the West and virtually ignoring the pilots on the East....

All way beyond your perceived transgressions of "name calling."

That's just Effing Terrific! It's also last years news.

Keep rearranging the deck chairs on your own personal Titanic until you feel Jerry Glass bending you over and giving it to you hard, fast and with no lube. All the while the dollars lost in wages, legal fees make the concept of being made whole an impossibility. Very Astute!! Thank God in Heaven that you goof balls don't actually run the airline.

Keep going with the "You Suck, No YOU suck, Oh Yeah well you suck more" as your income compared to other pilot group continues to RJ levels! Pretty soon Mesa will look like a step up for most. :angry:
BRILLIANT!

 

[Barrister]

Your logic is all backwards. AMR would have nothing to do with integrating lists that would take 89 hires who are deep in the F/O ranks and make them captains at AMR. Rather, they'd be quite receptive to the widebody preference given in the Nicolau:

777: 47
767-300: 58
767-200: 15
757: 124
MD80: 229
737-800: 153

The 47 777s are clearly in a league of their own. Under the Nic, 19 W/Bs resulted in 518 spots going East. (518/19)*47 = 1281. Then the ratio would start with the 58 767-300s versus a dozen or so 330s. Still ugly. Then there's the lopsided 757 fleet towards AMR's favor. If you're an AMR pilot, what's there not to love about the Nic?

Thats right top 2000 AMR next 2000 slotted 10-1 you still get screwed even as a westie with NIC!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[nevergiveup]

Your logic is all backwards. AMR would have nothing to do with integrating lists that would take 89 hires who are deep in the F/O ranks and make them captains at AMR. Rather, they'd be quite receptive to the widebody preference given in the Nicolau:

777: 47
767-300: 58
767-200: 15
757: 124
MD80: 229
737-800: 153

The 47 777s are clearly in a league of their own. Under the Nic, 19 W/Bs resulted in 518 spots going East. (518/19)*47 = 1281. Then the ratio would start with the 58 767-300s versus a dozen or so 330s. Still ugly. Then there's the lopsided 757 fleet towards AMR's favor. If you're an AMR pilot, what's there not to love about the Nic?
[/quote
If Airways goes doh and merges with AMR, then I expect the AMR union to survive. USAPA is gone. If the company is released from liability. who does the west sue?

 

[cactusboy53]

That's just Effing Terrific! It's also last years news.

Keep rearranging the deck chairs on your own personal Titanic until you feel Jerry Glass bending you over and giving it to you hard, fast and with no lube. All the while the dollars lost in wages, legal fees make the concept of being made whole an impossibility. Very Astute!! Thank God in Heaven that you goof balls don't actually run the airline.

Keep going with the "You Suck, No YOU suck, Oh Yeah well you suck more" as your income compared to other pilot group continues to RJ levels! Pretty soon Mesa will look like a step up for most. :angry:
BRILLIANT!

Sparrow;
Titanic or Lusitania...take your pick. The west isn't driving the ship. There is NO ONE on the west that has the ability, authority let alone the inclination to "mitigate the damages caused by Nicolau"(acclaimed). We are below decks manning the water pumps (the defense of our seniority rights as provided by the final and binding seniority arbitration) in the hope that the Coast Guard (the legal system) in time to save the day for some of the parties (before the USS LCC breaks up and sinks).

In the meantime Cleary & Mowrey are on the deck dressed in tuxedos trying to bribe the ship crew for a ride in the life boats. They see the water is starting to rise above decks, but calmly tell you not to worry. Fear not! There's plenty of room in the life boats for all of us! Don't panic, all is well.

This is being driven by USAPA and Cleary. PERIOD. The only time that is going to change is when you and yours decide that you have had enough, and change the union for the better.

Join us at: www.reformusapa.com. Even if you don't think the Nicolau award will be the final seniority list, the other two petitions give the PEOPLE more control of the union. These petitions only give us the chance to vote (no sure thing to pass), so completing them isn't a lock in any one direction. Please pass the hatin' and take the time to read. Educate yourself.

 

[nevergiveup]

Your logic is all backwards. AMR would have nothing to do with integrating lists that would take 89 hires who are deep in the F/O ranks and make them captains at AMR. Rather, they'd be quite receptive to the widebody preference given in the Nicolau:

777: 47
767-300: 58
767-200: 15
757: 124
MD80: 229
737-800: 153

The 47 777s are clearly in a league of their own. Under the Nic, 19 W/Bs resulted in 518 spots going East. (518/19)*47 = 1281. Then the ratio would start with the 58 767-300s versus a dozen or so 330s. Still ugly. Then there's the lopsided 757 fleet towards AMR's favor. If you're an AMR pilot, what's there not to love about the Nic?

20 yr FOs at American!

 

[cactusboy53]

If Airways goes doh and merges with AMR, then I expect the AMR union to survive. USAPA is gone. If the company is released from liability. who does the west sue?

How exactly will LCC go by DOH? Parker has accepted the Nicolau list, and has not accepted "the gold standard". The courts are in the midst of telling Parker / LCC whether he may or may not accept something other than the Nicolau. Also, the courts are going to decide if the company will be held harmless IF they accept something other than the Nicolau. NO LIST is going to be a final list until Parker gets his answer from the courts. If the decision doesn't go USAPA's way, then they appeal (because at the planet USAPA, that's how we roll).

IF Parker decides to attempt a merger with AA (or anyone else) prior to finishing court proceedings (YEARS), AND USAPA drops the DOH on the MERGER desk......what do you suppose the odds are that an injunction will be filed in a NY second to prevent your actions? I'd say pretty darn good. Your scenario goes from A to C.......but you for got about B. B as in "Boy, you must be kidding me!"

 

[sumadarson]

That's exactly where we're at, courtesy of the Koward Klan who four years ago sold enough East pilots on a hail mary plan that in reality had a very small chance to succeed. In so doing, the Koward Klan made this an all-or-nothing contest. The West bore the brunt for the first couple of years with lawsuits from the "union" run by the Koward Klan, slanderous statements, libel, harassment, Section 29s, tabled West grievances . . . everything was aimed at the West. Despite how nasty it's been for the West, it's still more tolerable for the West than the East, and I'd suspect that the reason is because the individual interests of each West pilot is still being met by funding the defense to the Koward Klan's attacks. Three and a half years have proven very successful for the West pilots. The flipside is not true. Needs are not being met on the East, and just wait until LOA93 is released. Game. Set. Match.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the current situation sir, regarding the former america west pilots and the original US airways pilots.