US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Don't tell me to go read anything. I just read it,again, yesterday. I know what he did, but that is not slotting by equipment at the top. His method of "protecting" the widebodies in reality just gave some east AB and 737 captains super seniority over what the more junior AB and 737 captains got. IMHO it was a screwed up way of protecting widebody flying that hurt west senior pilots.

The top 517 are in DOH order from the east. The rest are slotted, until you get to the "furloughed", and as it turns out many of the weren't actually furloughed, and they were stapled. As it turns out, they actually were mainline positions, even if they were not originally intended to be. How about Republic and Frontier? Were only the "mainline" EMB pilots the ones on the top?

Are those top 517 reserved for life? Will you make it to one?

Maybe you should read page 26 of the award, where Nic talks about DOH.

This started from what Jim said to me, it was not intended to be a rehash of the Nic.

You wrote are the 517 reserved for life. It is only as to those guys....as they retire the
Westies actually will be able to use the super seniority that NIC gave them to move into those slots.
You can get to the 517 but if nic were used you would stagnate forever as the
Westies came east and came in on top....so making it into the 517 means nothing really (if NIC is used)
does that make sense?? I know I am stating the obvious.

NICDOA
NPJB
 
You wrote are the 517 reserved for life. It is only as to those guys....as they retire the
Westies actually will be able to use the super seniority that NIC gave them to move into those slots.
You can get to the 517 but if nic were used you would stagnate forever as the
Westies came east and came in on top....so making it into the 517 means nothing really (if NIC is used)

Did cleary tell you that all of the seat locks would be dropped for westies, just so they can take an east widebody slot?

You do know the west contract ( the one that despite all the harrumfing from the NAC, is the one you'll end up with) has a 4 year seat lock for CA upgrades. So if someone takes an upgrade on a 320, they can't jump on a 757/767 position if it opens up the next day. So how many unfilled vacancies for upgrade to you suppose that translates into while waiting for "the big one" (a/c and position in their desired base) to strike on the hook? The days of going into training every 6 months is over!

Are you still sure that the poor easties will be forever blocked from moving up?
 
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Oh Knower of All and Reviser of History, that 17 year guy wouldn't have been an A330 capt on a standalone east list - he would have been on the street along with every other east pilot.

All of you guys trying to justify DOH by post-merger events are just illuminating how right Nic was - the east pilots stood to gain a lot more from the merger than the west pilots. If that had not been the case, the balance of equities might have more favored DOH with extensive C&R's. But pretending that it wasn't the case doesn't change the facts - east was on the way to liquidation without the merger.

Jim

Hey look....BB and 767 Jetz are back. What happened? Did ALPA renew your contracts?

V
 
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You wrote are the 517 reserved for life. It is only as to those guys....as they retire the
Westies actually will be able to use the super seniority that NIC gave them to move into those slots.
You can get to the 517 but if nic were used you would stagnate forever as the
Westies came east and came in on top....so making it into the 517 means nothing really (if NIC is used)
does that make sense?? I know I am stating the obvious.

NICDOA
NPJB

No, I was asking Jake facetiously. I know they don't.
 
Did cleary tell you that all of the seat locks would be dropped for westies, just so they can take an east widebody slot?

You do know the west contract ( the one that despite all the harrumfing from the NAC, is the one you'll end up with) has a 4 year seat lock for CA upgrades. So if someone takes an upgrade on a 320, they can't jump on a 757/767 position if it opens up the next day. So how many unfilled vacancies for upgrade to you suppose that translates into while waiting for "the big one" (a/c and position in their desired base) to strike on the hook? The days of going into training every 6 months is over!

Are you still sure that the poor easties will be forever blocked from moving up?

Really? We are going to end up with the west contract. And where do you get that?
 
I think the crime is what your friend Kirby did on a couple of flights, huh?
More accusation without facts. Typical east behavior. You should be careful. Kirby has much deeper pockets than pilots to go after someone that slanders him.

Are you also going to say he is going to jail too? BTW when are the 3 west pilots getting locked up like you said? Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
 
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Having been around these boards since 2001, I can say with certainty that with some there was no love lost when it came to ALPA. This was especially true during BK1, less so with BK2.

There was a significant number of pilots who wanted out of ALPA at almost any cost. Whether this almost blind hatred of ALPA colored their views to the point where the situation rests now I couldn't hazard a guess.

IIRC there were several attempts to oust ALPA prior & during BK1. The efforts failed up until the Nic award which apparently galvanized a majority to rid themselves of ALPA at any cost.

Wise choice? No idea! What i do know is everyone is paying a very steep price in hard dollar and emotional terms. There is a way out, I just don't know what it is as I don't know nearly enough about the QOL issues and Seniority in general as it applies to pilots.

On one hand DOH seems like a quick and easy way to integrate the 2 groups. I get hired on Monday and you get hired on Tuesday, I'm ahead of you. Period.

Not picking sides here but what I've read on Nic makes it seem flawed, It appears to pick winners and losers.

I just don't like to see good people screwed at work and right now EVERYONE of you is screwed! My God there are prostitutes that have been screwed less.

IMO there is a way out. There's always a way out and the problem now is one of testosterone poisoning. Everyone is bellowing and posturing and so far all that's happened is a few lawyers are a bit richer for their efforts. This is like the trench warfare of WWI, Both sides dug into fixed positions with precious little ground gained by either side.

This situation calls for bold vision and leadership, not kingdom building and Machiavellian intrigue and I'll bet that the posters here know exactly where the common ground is. Problem is that those at the top in USAPA have their own personal agendas and as a result 5,000 or so pilot careers hang in the balance. It's not right.

Evidence tells me that you have been around since 2009. Eight years of lurking sure is a long time there Bob.

SparrowHawk 
Group:Registered Member
Posts:1,782
Joined:30-November 09

I first came to these boards because our guys were talking about all the crybabies on these boards after the Nic. I could not stand it after 2 years of lurking. I'll bet it drove you nuts. You go on to say, "not picking sides" which tells me you are picking sides. Major BS flag on that one.

Really, is your life so boring that you have to stick your nose in our dispute or do you have some other motive to your madness from the Cuckoo's Nest?
 
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Did cleary tell you that all of the seat locks would be dropped for westies, just so they can take an east widebody slot?

You do know the west contract ( the one that despite all the harrumfing from the NAC, is the one you'll end up with) has a 4 year seat lock for CA upgrades. So if someone takes an upgrade on a 320, they can't jump on a 757/767 position if it opens up the next day. So how many unfilled vacancies for upgrade to you suppose that translates into while waiting for "the big one" (a/c and position in their desired base) to strike on the hook? The days of going into training every 6 months is over!

Are you still sure that the poor easties will be forever blocked from moving up?

No not blocked just stagnated forever....while guys hired 5-10-15 years after them move up......
AND KEEP MOVING UP........we are fine right where we are....ARE YOU......
you gonna be saying that when we start hiring 20-30 a month and 2 go West???????????
???????????????????????

NICDOA
NPJB
 
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That's an assumption that you will never be able to prove. The fact is amw paid off the atsb loans early. They recalled and were hiring. They had 20 something jets on order and were turning a profit. Whatever Parker has said to the contrary smacks of placating the east. He has more of idea of the future in 2005 any anybody else. Again. An irrefutable fact, unless youre comfortable arguing Parkers clairvoyance.

There is no question you were toast. None. No speculation, no clairvoyance. Fact. Btw, very few people give a crap about the 330. Job 1 is keeping the job the west had, not handing it over to a 2.5year active service, 6+ year multiple-round furlough working for a twice bk airline swirling the toilet bowl.
So after Parker the truth telling opportunist, no one in the entire universe would have invested in a carrier that had rid itself of downside obligations and had a viable route structure in the heart of America's commercial alley. Someone may have seen the opportunity, lease holders did..Parker did. But who cares we are still here, no speculation, no clairvoyance. Fact.
 
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Let's be clear on one thing, I'm a customer not a pilot. In fact I can barely keep a R/C model in the air. :D

I will concede that Jerry Glass is a Professional. A Professional scumbag, union busting, law breaking megalomaniac and I don't particularly care for unions all that much. I've seen him and guys like him sacrifice thousands of everyday people at the alter of Corporate Greed. Sadly I've seen union greed first hand as well in the Mack Trucks Struggle of the mid 80's. I was quiet then. now I speak.

Well judging from BK#1 the "Pro" that APLA hired wasn't in the same league as Mr Glass. Jerry Glass was Ali in his prime and the ALPA guy, well let's just say he wasn't Ali, or Fraser, Norton, Holmes for that matter, in fact he was more like Jean-Pierre Koopman, former Belgian Heavyweight champ.

If you don't unite you have NO CHANCE.
Thanks for trying. Wait until these guys are sitting back and looking at what they gave in order to save something that wasn't t even an issue to start! It will be classic. Unfortunately, they will find it often will involve the possibility of their base closing or more furloughs if an opportunity presents itself. I know the east will see it coming, but the smarter west kids are already behind this one. The are loa 93 observers? I am going to watch glass eat their lunch. Unfortunately for them.
 
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Thanks for trying. Wait until these guys are sitting back and looking at what they gave in order to save something that wasn't t even an issue to start! It will be classic. Unfortunately, they will find it often will involve the possibility of their base closing or more furloughs if an opportunity presents itself. I know the east will see it coming, but the smarter west kids are already behind this one. The are loa 93 observers? I am going to watch glass eat their lunch. Unfortunately for them.
Just like you saw 1700 furloughs coming your way but stayed at US Airways. Just like you saw the 2 BK coming your way but stayed hoping for something better.

You guys can't see the tracks you are standing on and the train speeding towards you.

Possibility of a base closing. Why is it you think we laugh at the useless C&R? Because we do see PHX shrinking or closing and there is no protection. Straight DOH no thinks. We will stick with the min block hours and our base. No more furloughs because of the T/A. No something usapa can or will get in a new contract.

Dude are you really that out to lunch? How is Glass going to eat our lunch? The west is not even at the table. It is east NAC. If he eats our lunch you guys never had lunch to start with. Enjoy LOA 93 that is what you are going to retire on.
 
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Right. That's called hind sight in your case. You're still here thanks only to Doug parker, your savior.
Your funny. I speculate and call it speculation. You speculate and call it fact. Parker is a carpetbagger not a savior IMO. But I am sure he appreciates being considered venerable by at least someone.
 
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Question.

Is there a potential outcome of the LOA 93 arbitration that would position LCC to file for BK? And if so, would that ability enable LCC to redraw this thing totally and completely outside the current lines?

jm
 
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