US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Piedmont1984]

Actually they DID depose me but it was too late in the deposition phase to get me there. I went on vacation and the remaining week and a half left for depositions meant it was too late. I have the email to prove it.

To be quite frank I really don't care if they do or don't. Contrary to your impression my ego has nothing to prove. As far as the "big kids" you're welcome to continue with banter and name calling. The truth will eventually come out. Unlike you and yours hidden behind board names I'm not afraid to come out and call it like it is.

I am considering a run for BPR this time coming and I have until mid July to put my name in. As far as committees I would love to volunteer but right now, first we have qualified people that I have every confidence in running and secondly I have a business that takes almost all my time when not flying. I could not, in good conscience serve and represent any constiuency fairly with my current obligations if I served on a committee or BPR. As for an officer, that is ONE position that I'm glad Steve, Mark K., mike, Mark T., and the others have the stomach for, I don't care for it, personally.

No matter, you all can believe what you want....I just tell it like it is.

Good luck.

JJ

If you're running for CLT then I would certainly consider voting for you. I know you have been adamant about DOH. I would only urge you to consider the following.

Despite the animosity manifested by a few on these boards, I continue to believe that the overwhelming majority on both sides are reasonable. The fact remains that with the creation of USAPA, the west lost it's veto power. They originally had the right to negotiate, mediate and arbitrate a SLI, just as we expect to in the next merger. That right was taken away. If the Nic was far too onerous - and I agree that it was - then the least we should do is reset the clock. Go back to status quo anti bellum. Two sides with equal rights. Find a mechanism to give the west the autonomy and authority which allows them to participate as equals in what was originally a merger of equals, despite the years of emotion, animosity, epithets and posturing meant to suggest otherwise. A majority vote implies the existence of one single and merged pilot group. But the process which led to that has never been consummated.

Mine is a minority view I know, but it's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Good luck if you decide to run.

KV

 

[luvn737s]

Can you explain why you would elect someone unreasonable to head a "union" with an unreasonable goal of disenfranchising 1/3 of the pilots while still expecting to achieve goals only possible through unity?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Can you explain why you would elect someone unreasonable to head a "union" with an unreasonable goal of disenfranchising 1/3 of the pilots while still expecting to achieve goals only possible through unity?

First of all, he's not running for union head. Second, what I want from a BPR rep is a strong pilot advocate, not someone crafting union strategy. Third, I want someone who will listen to and consider my inputs, have a rational reason for disagreeing with them, or be willing to change their unreasonable position in the alternative.

Finally, if we can't even agree that we have a union, then disregard all of the above.

 

[luvthe9]

Well because I'm a Customer not a pilot. I read a lot about aviation and I'm mostly unimpressed with pilots unions in general with maybe the exception of DL.

Back in what we called "The Dark Days" I witnessed Jerry Glass just take the US pilots apart piece by piece. I'm telling you Glass will not only win he'll kick your ever lovin' assets all over the country if you don't get your poop together.

You are correct about glass. In the past. Remember. Our average age is 58 . What can he take now? Nothing. If he tries anything this time the place will never survive. We would love to exact a piece of him and Doug this time.

 

[luvn737s]

First of all, he's not running for union head. Second, what I want from a BPR rep is a strong pilot advocate, not someone crafting union strategy. Third, I want someone who will listen to and consider my inputs, have a rational reason for disagreeing with them, or be willing to change their unreasonable position in the alternative.

Finally, if we can't even agree that we have a union, then disregard all of the above.

You do know that Cleary is supposed to carry out the will of the BPR which includes union strategy. why advocate for the pilots if the union is irrelevant? The union needs to be taken seriously and it will not be until the critical component of unity is cultivated. And that cannot be done under USAPA.

Folks like EOA have salted the earth and in doing so have proven that they are only out for themselves (I Got Mine) and cannot be trusted to be a pilot advocate.

 

[SparrowHawk]

You are correct about glass. In the past. Remember. Our average age is 58 . What can he take now? Nothing. If he tries anything this time the place will never survive. We would love to exact a piece of him and Doug this time.

You know I hadn't looked at it through that particular prism before your post. I want to think on it before I say more

 

[luvn737s]

You are correct about glass. In the past. Remember. Our average age is 58 . What can he take now? Nothing. If he tries anything this time the place will never survive. We would love to exact a piece of him and Doug this time.

Yeah, destroying the lives of 35000 families is worth the temporary inconvenience to Parker and Glass. Who wouldn't support folks like you?

 

[end_of_alpa]

JJ

If you're running for CLT then I would certainly consider voting for you. I know you have been adamant about DOH. I would only urge you to consider the following.

Despite the animosity manifested by a few on these boards, I continue to believe that the overwhelming majority on both sides are reasonable. The fact remains that with the creation of USAPA, the west lost it's veto power. They originally had the right to negotiate, mediate and arbitrate a SLI, just as we expect to in the next merger. That right was taken away. If the Nic was far too onerous - and I agree that it was - then the least we should do is reset the clock. Go back to status quo anti bellum. Two sides with equal rights. Find a mechanism to give the west the autonomy and authority which allows them to participate as equals in what was originally a merger of equals, despite the years of emotion, animosity, epithets and posturing meant to suggest otherwise. A majority vote implies the existence of one single and merged pilot group. But the process which led to that has never been consummated.

Mine is a minority view I know, but it's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Good luck if you decide to run.

KV

Thanks K. We've met and talked before. I too believe the overwhelming majority on both sides are reasonable as well. Don't forget that with the creation of USAPA the East lost it's veto power, which, BTW, cost the East the super majority provision just like the West. I would disagree that their right was taken away. However, to go back, as you say, to the status quo anti-bellum implies rolling back the hands of time. That is an impossibility. It's been 6 years and counting, our careers are inextricably entwined. We are STILL in status quo (except the company pushes us on safety) and going back is not possible.....like in the civil war, the end will eventually play out, either on the battlefield or as in here, the courtroom. We do have equal rights, it's unfortunate the political promises could not come to fruition. C'est la vie.

As far as a "merger of equals" that to me is just a catch phrase made up by ALPA, no offense. You're absolutely correct the process which led to a merged pilot group was never consummated. That process WAS given a chance under ALPA. And that process is still playing out. Unfortunately it's a path that has yet to be played out. Time is nobody's friend, but in our present situation I fear more for those that can least afford the results.....and that quandary is not near as much an east issue as it is a west.

And where are we now? When pilots can begin to come up with a value system that is objective, clear and provides measurable values for all of us then we as an industry may get somewhere in the grand scheme of labor-management relations.

How about this solution: we take the top 1000 east pilots and move them to the bottom of the list. Then we take the west pilots and move all them to the top and the rest of the east pilots into the middle, effective immediately.

How many of those top 1000 votes do you think would vote for that?

How many of the west pilots would vote for that?

How many of the remaining east pilots would vote for that?

 

[end_of_alpa]

You do know that Cleary is supposed to carry out the will of the BPR which includes union strategy. why advocate for the pilots if the union is irrelevant? The union needs to be taken seriously and it will not be until the critical component of unity is cultivated. And that cannot be done under USAPA.

Folks like EOA have salted the earth and in doing so have proven that they are only out for themselves (I Got Mine) and cannot be trusted to be a pilot advocate.

Right. I'm out for myself. This is all about me. I got mine....all the traditional pilot and childlike laments.

The facts:
member in good standing = your vote.

Members in good standing = our votes (east or west)

Your vote carries no more or no less weight than mine

My time in service carries no more or no less weight than yours

No DOH/longevity = no security for the Junior pilot

You hired on with an airline with DOH list

I hired on with an airline with a DOH list

ALPA promised a solution......

Question......AS OF TODAY, DID THEY DELIVER?

 

[fodase]

Thanks K. We've met and talked before. I too believe the overwhelming majority on both sides are reasonable as well. Don't forget that with the creation of USAPA the East lost it's veto power, which, BTW, cost the East the super majority provision just like the West. I would disagree that their right was taken away. However, to go back, as you say, to the status quo anti-bellum implies rolling back the hands of time. That is an impossibility. It's been 6 years and counting, our careers are inextricably entwined. We are STILL in status quo (except the company pushes us on safety) and going back is not possible.....like in the civil war, the end will eventually play out, either on the battlefield or as in here, the courtroom. We do have equal rights, it's unfortunate the political promises could not come to fruition. C'est la vie.

As far as a "merger of equals" that to me is just a catch phrase made up by ALPA, no offense. You're absolutely correct the process which led to a merged pilot group was never consummated. That process WAS given a chance under ALPA. And that process is still playing out. Unfortunately it's a path that has yet to be played out. Time is nobody's friend, but in our present situation I fear more for those that can least afford the results.....and that quandary is not near as much an east issue as it is a west.

And where are we now? When pilots can begin to come up with a value system that is objective, clear and provides measurable values for all of us then we as an industry may get somewhere in the grand scheme of labor-management relations.

How about this solution: we take the top 1000 east pilots and move them to the bottom of the list. Then we take the west pilots and move all them to the top and the rest of the east pilots into the middle, effective immediately.

How many of those top 1000 votes do you think would vote for that?

How many of the west pilots would vote for that?

How many of the remaining east pilots would vote for that?

KV knows what is coming down, that is why he is seeking compromise to have a better chance at getting something better than Nic. in the end. Don't fall for it JJ, full speed ahead for doh is the only right thing to do.

 

[cleardirect]

You are correct about glass. In the past. Remember. Our average age is 58 . What can he take now? Nothing. If he tries anything this time the place will never survive. We would love to exact a piece of him and Doug this time.

You keep throwing that number around like it is a fact. 58 is wrong BTW.

What do you think is the average age of the west pilots?

 

[USA320Pilot]

ALPA Canadian North Pilots Ratify Tentative Agreement

ALPA Canadian North Pilots Ratify Tentative Agreement. Canadian North pilots joined ALPA earlier this year.

See Story

 

[Metroyet]

Right. I'm out for myself. This is all about me. I got mine....all the traditional pilot and childlike laments.

The facts:
member in good standing = your vote.

Members in good standing = our votes (east or west)

Your vote carries no more or no less weight than mine

My time in service carries no more or no less weight than yours

No DOH/longevity = no security for the Junior pilot

You hired on with an airline with DOH list

I hired on with an airline with a DOH list

ALPA promised a solution......

Question......AS OF TODAY, DID THEY DELIVER?

Save your keystrokes SCAB. You idiots were way....way....WAY to transparent when you formed this illegal mob. It's all documented, it's all readily available when needed. There is no doubt, in ANYBODY'S mind why USCABA was formed. The bottom line is a handful of hard core maniacs convinced enough desperate folks that they had the solution. You were abjectly, flatly, wrong. You created a quagmire that has caused irreparable, permanent harm to you and your like minded cronies careers. The only thing concerning you is your Narcissistic Rage and the certitude of your importance. You're Effin' crazy. Just like Bi-polar Cleary. A Jury Blew up all of your pathetic little arguments in less than 90 minutes of deliberation. They absolutely, positively will find so again if the need arises. I can promise you that.

You have painted yourself into a corner and your plan has been an epic failure. You are directly responsible for the fleecing of hundreds of millions of dollars from your "brothers and sisters" and you're either too stupid or too Crazy to allow the course to be Altered. Your fake Union is run like North Korea. Is that what you "founding dipsh*ts" had in mind?

 

[nevergiveup]

Save your keystrokes SCAB. You idiots were way....way....WAY to transparent when you formed this illegal mob. It's all documented, it's all readily available when needed. There is no doubt, in ANYBODY'S mind why USCABA was formed. The bottom line is a handful of hard core maniacs convinced enough desperate folks that they had the solution. You were abjectly, flatly, wrong. You created a quagmire that has caused irreparable, permanent harm to you and your like minded cronies careers. The only thing concerning you is your Narcissistic Rage and the certitude of your importance. You're Effin' crazy. Just like Bi-polar Cleary. A Jury Blew up all of your pathetic little arguments in less than 90 minutes of deliberation. They absolutely, positively will find so again if the need arises. I can promise you that.

You have painted yourself into a corner and your plan has been an epic failure. You are directly responsible for the fleecing of hundreds of millions of dollars from your "brothers and sisters" and you're either too stupid or too Crazy to allow the course to be Altered. Your fake Union is run like North Korea. Is that what you "founding dipsh*ts" had in mind?

So what's your point?

 

[luvthe9]

Save your keystrokes SCAB. You idiots were way....way....WAY to transparent when you formed this illegal mob. It's all documented, it's all readily available when needed. There is no doubt, in ANYBODY'S mind why USCABA was formed. The bottom line is a handful of hard core maniacs convinced enough desperate folks that they had the solution. You were abjectly, flatly, wrong. You created a quagmire that has caused irreparable, permanent harm to you and your like minded cronies careers. The only thing concerning you is your Narcissistic Rage and the certitude of your importance. You're Effin' crazy. Just like Bi-polar Cleary. A Jury Blew up all of your pathetic little arguments in less than 90 minutes of deliberation. They absolutely, positively will find so again if the need arises. I can promise you that.

You have painted yourself into a corner and your plan has been an epic failure. You are directly responsible for the fleecing of hundreds of millions of dollars from your "brothers and sisters" and you're either too stupid or too Crazy to allow the course to be Altered. Your fake Union is run like North Korea. Is that what you "founding dipsh*ts" had in mind?

Just make sure you get Wake to be the judge! The way you stepped on your cranks last time you were so sure of things was comical! KEEP THE DONATIONS COMING!!!