US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

Jj, it's not about doh or nic., it's about advancing the majority at the expense of the minority. The fact u claim that the twa guys won because doh wasn't use speaks volumes as to your delusion

You are not a minority....sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The bargaining agent didn't follow their merger policy. They basically hogtied TWA's merger counsel. DFR!

No different than ignoring the merger policy in our case. Change names all you want, the East still agreed to binding arbitration. We negotiated, mediated and arbitrated. The list is the list.

ALPA may not have $1.2 billion, but US Airways sure as he77 does. The company is never going to deal on seniority, especially with 2/3rds of their pilots on BK wages.

The pilots didn't vote. I just got finished with reading third circuit appeal. The argument was basically were there facts to possibly prove ALPA was preferring the APA pilots to get them into ALPA and forgetting about the TWA pilots? Notice also that TWA and APA were dropped as defendants.

No doubt ALPA screwed this us just like TWA. Go sue ALPA.

The company will deal with whatever they have to deal with if the financial pain or the diminishment of the franchise are at stake.

You guys keep suing USAPA with the false hopes.

Good luck.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Gee Skippy, you kinda already did that with the phony "union" you ginned up in the back of that van. If your brain trust would devote even 1/10th as much effort into building unity as it does trying to marginalize the west, you'd probably have already accomplished the goals of unionism - improved pay and working conditions for it's members.

The pilots of US cannot shuck the chains of USAPA off fast enough!!

And think, you helped make that all possible. I bet Mom's proud of you!

Gee Stimpie, you kinda already did that with the phony "corporation" you ginned up in the back of that whorehouse. If your brain trust would devote even 1/10th as much effort into building unity as it does trying to marginalize the East, you'd probably have already accomplished the goals of unionism - improved pay and working conditions for it's members......that vote!

The pilots of US Airways cannot shuck the chains of AOL off fast enough!!

And think, you helped make all that possible. I bet Mom's proud of you!

You see, I'm as good as pounding sand as you are!

Good luck in court, youre going to need it.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Being your version of unionism is virtually indistinguishable from scabbing, I'd say good effing riddance to usapa.

Again, chickensh1t you're welcome to say that to my face.

I'll be in Tempe soon enough and you know my name.....I'm looking forward to the challenge, chump.

 

[Black Swan]

Oh brother.......it just keeps getting deeper and deeper out there in USAPA-land.

Deep? We will hire Haber and Seham to kick Leonidas one more time. Here is your "deep" discussion of how they furloughed and took the pension to make it fly. We will counter with this for your "damages" mantra.



GESTATION PERIOD

US Airways was talking merger with America West well in advance of its second bankruptcy filing, but the pay, pension and retiree-benefit cutbacks of its current stint in Chapter 11 are what made the deal feasible, according to a regulatory filing by America West.

The filing, to the Securities and Exchange Commission, makes clear that even though the deal was concluded within a month after initial press reports that the two airlines were in negotiations, its origins go back as far as February 2004. The filing also revises downward, to 39% from 45%, the share of the merged company's equity that will go to current America West shareholders, who are being asked to approve the merger.

In a registration statement describing merger terms to these shareholders, America West gives this account of how the deal came about:

THE FIRST DISCUSSIONS resulted from the troubles US Airways faced after emerging from its first bankruptcy, on Mar. 31, 2003. The carrier reduced its highest-in-the-industry costs considerably during an eight-month reorganization but overestimated its post-bankruptcy revenues and was surprised, then as now, by fuel price increases. Casting about for ways to avoid another Chapter 11 filing, US Airways looked at an America West merger as one alternative.

For its part, America West's management "believed that consolidation in the industry was inevitable, and was interested in the potential benefits of combining the airlines' complementary east-west route networks." But the talks ended in July 2004 when both carriers concluded that it wouldn't work due to "a number of issues, including . . . labor, pension and benefit costs." Two months later, US Airways went back into Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

In December 2004, assuming it would reduce its labor costs further, US Airways set out to investigate deals with other companies. US Airways/America West talks were reopened in January, this time figuring that their labor costs would turn out to be "similar," and that bankruptcy would increase the ability to combine networks more efficiently and cost effectively than before. US Airways' prospective post-reorganization liquidity also was a plus.

Enter the committees and the consultants. The board of America West's parent, America West Holdings, was briefed on the renewed talks on Jan. 20 as part of a strategy presentation. The strategy and finance committee of US Airways Holdings' board was advised late in February. Legal, financial and labor analyses followed in March, with the key finding that US Airways' labor costs no longer made a merger impractical.

The pace of negotiations quickened in April. The airlines and their advisers--The Seabury Group for US Airways and Greenhill & Co. for America West, mainly--met and teleconferenced often on such issues as the ratio for converting America West shares into shares of the new company (shares of the old US Airways will be worthless as part of the reorganization), the need for additional equity investment and the composition of the new company's board. The airlines met with potential investors and with the Air Transportation Stabilization Board, which administers government-guaranteed loans to both carriers and has veto power over the merger.

Word of the merger talks leaked out midway through the month. On Apr. 19, the day the full board of US Airways met and reviewed the negotiations, The Wall Street Journal posted a web site report, and a print version the next day. On Apr. 22 the carriers confirmed it.

In May the negotiators settled on $375 million as the minimum new investment needed for the merger to proceed. By then, the airlines had lined up $350 million from four entities--Eastshore Holdings, PAR Investment Partners, ACE Aviation Holdings and Peninsula Investment Partners, with $125 million, $100 million, $75 million and $50 million, respectively. The total reached $500 million in a deal concluded after the merger was announced in mid-May, by which Wellington Management Co. will invest $150 million on behalf of funds it manages.

The Wellington investment apparently accounts for the reduced percentage ownership in the new company for America West shareholders. In the mid-May announcement, the division was said to be 45% to America West shareholders, 41% to new equity investors and 14% to some of US Airways' creditors. Now, the new investors will get 49%, America West shareholders 39% and the creditors 12%.

THE MERGER CLEARED an important hurdle June 23, when the Justice Dept. said it will have no objections based on antitrust laws. This was no surprise--there was very little overlap in the route networks. They will face competition from Southwest nonstops on Philadelphia-Phoenix and Philadelphia-Las Vegas, two of their four hub-to-hub markets. On Charlotte-Las Vegas, AirTran Airways and Independence Air offer one-stop service. Only on Charlotte-Phoenix will competition be limited to legacy carriers' one-stops.


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[Black Swan]

The bargaining agent didn't follow their merger policy. They basically hogtied TWA's merger counsel. DFR!

No different than ignoring the merger policy in our case. Change names all you want, the East still agreed to binding arbitration. We negotiated, mediated and arbitrated. The list is the list.

ALPA may not have $1.2 billion, but US Airways sure as he77 does. The company is never going to deal on seniority, especially with 2/3rds of their pilots on BK wages.

Contained in the body of this statement above is the Achilles heel of the entire west argument. This was an ALPA arbitration. Your case is closed. This opinion FIRMLY backed by the 9th Court of Appeals, San Francisco. Your statement? Pure conjecture and rejected by the 9th.

 

[john john]

the rest of the employee groups merged as co-equals in terms of position & status. Independent of union-orchestrated SLI processes, a Res agent is a Res agent no matter which company they came from, a CSR is a CSR, a fleet service person is a fleet person, a captain is a captain and so on.

You need to stick to pilot’s issues not agent’s issues
The agents deal with the threat of fulltime employees being force to go part-time in others words a agent can be a fulltimer, part-timer, supervisor and force out of there classification
An agent is an agent as is a pilot is a pilot
An agent is fulltime
An agent is partime
An agent is a supervisor

 

[Black Swan]

This afternoon a jury rendered a verdict in favor of the TWA pilots in their DFR lawsuit against ALPA. This is a tremendous victory for every pilot group who happens to find themselves in a merger with a larger pilot group. The TWA case represents the other side of the same DFR coin as our lawsuit against USAPA: in TWA, the DFR was the union failing to follow its merger policy. In Addington, the DFR occurred when the union followed the merger policy, but then ignored the result. The fact that we have a different name on the union door is trivial as far as the law is concerned.

The attorneys which litigated for the TWA pilots were Martin Green and Allen Press of Green Jacobson, P.C. These were the original attorneys retained by Leonidas, LLC, before hiring Polsinelli Shughart. The two Leonidas founders met with Mr. Green and Mr. Press at their Saint Louis office in September of 2007. A representational agreement was reached and one of the Leonidas founders wrote a check for $25,000 of his own money to be used as a retainer. Mr. Press, and another of the firm's excellent attorneys, Fernando Bermudez, provided Leonidas with critical legal analysis which allowed the West to stand firm against the growing threat posed by the East pilots both through ALPA and USAPA. It was just after this critical time that Mr. Press discovered a potential conflict of interest in his representation of the AWA pilots, as our DFR case potentially tracked back to ALPA. The firm was already representing the TWA pilots at that time, and their case was clearly against ALPA. When one attorney represents two different plaintiffs in unrelated matters against the same defendant, pernicious conflicts of interest could arise. Also, it was Lee Seham himself (who had been retained as an “expert witness” on behalf of the TWA pilots) who demanded that the Green firm abandon its relationship with Leonidas, or he would exit the litigation on behalf of the TWA pilots. We would like to thank Lee for his excellent and helpful analysis in the TWA case, which was validated this morning by a jury. Unfortunately for USAPA, that analysis diametrically opposes Lee's legal position on its behalf.

Hence, it was Mr. Press who referred us to Marty Harper. The Leonidas founders were always impressed by Martin, Allen and Fernando’s work, and there is no doubt that the TWA pilots have had outstanding litigators on their side. Once again, thank you to Martin, Allen, and Fernando for your work on behalf of the AWA pilots. Most especially, thank you to Allen Press for referring us to Marty Harper and Andy Jacob. Both the TWA pilots and the AWA pilots have had to walk very difficult paths. Neither group chose these ordeals, but they are our respective realities. Fortunately, it appears to be working out as well as possible for both wronged pilot groups. Tonight as we contemplate another stunning victory for an underdog, we suspect that we are not alone in expressing our heartfelt congratulations to the TWA pilots who funded own their litigation and never gave up. WELL DONE!

Note: According to several former TWA pilots we have spoken with, the bulk of the funds donated to their litigation effort came from pilots who were furloughed and underemployed. They did this knowing that their opponent had unlimited resources and could delay justice for many years.

Next in the TWA case will be the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law, which will be their version of the Addington Doc. 593. We will then be able to make a better comparison between our case and the TWA case. In closing, we wish to reiterate our thanks to our Leonidas, LLC contributors. Your unwavering financial support has stopped USAPA dead in their tracks. Along with the TWA pilots who made their litigation possible, together we are proving that, “might does not make right.”


Sincerely,

Leonidas LLC

No, this is a tremendous victory for another group of pilots who were stapled like Nicolau. This is a HUGE victory for USAPA, as it proves AGAIN that ALPA and its' merger policy disadvantages its' members. Nicolau stapled 1800 East pilots on the bottom, with NO regard to time served.Joe Monda being exhibt one. 17 yrs uninterrupted,and he gets lumped in with a new hire. This has nothing to do with your membership size, and everything to do with ALPA not representing a group and allowing them to be taken advantage of, like the East pilots. In complete disregard to NO WINDFALL. This case is the best thing that ever happened to the East pilots. It clearly backs up our decision to launch ALPA, because their seniority integrations are corrupted, and arbitrary. ALPA and its' seniority integrations have been again, proved to be corrupt and arbitrary. Aside from all the other damage ALPA allowed to the east, launching ALPA was the only available REMEDY to its' tyranny. A fact totally lost on Leonidas. Launching ALPA is validated by the TWA case, as demonstration that the ONLY way to get their attention to correct the Nicolau Travesty, was to remove them, or risk a costly trial to accomplish the same. Their inaction justified their removal. Ask any TWA pilot on the stand if they wish they had also removed ALPA. The answer will be a resounding YES! This verdict now REFUTES the West claim, and validates the East action of removal. The Nicolau is exhibit 2 in this fight, TWA being case 1. Without Wake, Leonidas has NO chance going forward. Wake was SPANKED for what he did, and rightfully so. These other judges will get it, as they do not make the law their HOBBY.
Leonidas got it all wrong. It is all about ALPA, screwing up its' members because they failed to make a concrete merger policy and changed it all the time. This is all about ALPA and its' allowing windfalls, especially Nicolau. The TWA pilots just made a great case for USAPA in demonstrating how ALPA is a failed union and merger steward. The East pilots have shown ALPA refuses to stand by their membership in a failed arbitration that disregarded ALPA policy. Their removal was absolutely justified. TWA backed it. An American right, to remove a tyrannical union that has lost all sensibility and is all about the money. A fantastic day for American Justice!

 

[Black Swan]

...

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

No. A couple of hundred retirements on the East and this thing is over.

GUESS AGAIN ! YOU WISH, but nothing ever is that simple, boy wait till the NAUGHLER CASE kicks in, ALPA'S got problems! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

No, this is a tremendous victory for another group of pilots who were stapled like Nicolau. This is a HUGE victory for USAPA, as it proves AGAIN that ALPA and its' merger policy disadvantages its' members. Nicolau stapled 1800 East pilots on the bottom, with NO regard to time served.Joe Monda being exhibt one. 17 yrs uninterrupted,and he gets lumped in with a new hire. This has nothing to do with your membership size, and everything to do with ALPA not representing a group and allowing them to be taken advantage of, like the East pilots. In complete disregard to NO WINDFALL. This case is the best thing that ever happened to the East pilots. It clearly backs up our decision to launch ALPA, because their seniority integrations are corrupted, and arbitrary. ALPA and its' seniority integrations have been again, proved to be corrupt and arbitrary. Aside from all the other damage ALPA allowed to the east, launching ALPA was the only available REMEDY to its' tyranny. A fact totally lost on Leonidas. Launching ALPA is validated by the TWA case, as demonstration that the ONLY way to get their attention to correct the Nicolau Travesty, was to remove them, or risk a costly trial to accomplish the same. Their inaction justified their removal. Ask any TWA pilot on the stand if they wish they had also removed ALPA. The answer will be a resounding YES! This verdict now REFUTES the West claim, and validates the East action of removal. The Nicolau is exhibit 2 in this fight, TWA being case 1. Without Wake, Leonidas has NO chance going forward. Wake was SPANKED for what he did, and rightfully so. These other judges will get it, as they do not make the law their HOBBY.
Leonidas got it all wrong. It is all about ALPA, screwing up its' members because they failed to make a concrete merger policy and changed it all the time. This is all about ALPA and its' allowing windfalls, especially Nicolau. The TWA pilots just made a great case for USAPA in demonstrating how ALPA is a failed union and merger steward. The East pilots have shown ALPA refuses to stand by their membership in a failed arbitration that disregarded ALPA policy. Their removal was absolutely justified. TWA backed it. An American right, to remove a tyrannical union that has lost all sensibility and is all about the money. A fantastic day for American Justice!

AMEN SWAN!

 

[aquagreen73s]

AMEN SWAN!

We've just discovered that the River of Delusion runs deeper in USAPA-land than previously thought.

Whatever guys. Think what you want, but in the real world it's clear the company will never deal on seniority. All roads liead to the Nic.

 

[cactusboy53]

No, this is a tremendous victory for another group of pilots who were stapled like Nicolau. This is a HUGE victory for USAPA, as it proves AGAIN that ALPA and its' merger policy disadvantages its' members. Nicolau stapled 1800 East pilots on the bottom, with NO regard to time served.Joe Monda being exhibt one. 17 yrs uninterrupted,and he gets lumped in with a new hire. This has nothing to do with your membership size, and everything to do with ALPA not representing a group and allowing them to be taken advantage of, like the East pilots. In complete disregard to NO WINDFALL. This case is the best thing that ever happened to the East pilots. It clearly backs up our decision to launch ALPA, because their seniority integrations are corrupted, and arbitrary. ALPA and its' seniority integrations have been again, proved to be corrupt and arbitrary. Aside from all the other damage ALPA allowed to the east, launching ALPA was the only available REMEDY to its' tyranny. A fact totally lost on Leonidas. Launching ALPA is validated by the TWA case, as demonstration that the ONLY way to get their attention to correct the Nicolau Travesty, was to remove them, or risk a costly trial to accomplish the same. Their inaction justified their removal. Ask any TWA pilot on the stand if they wish they had also removed ALPA. The answer will be a resounding YES! This verdict now REFUTES the West claim, and validates the East action of removal. The Nicolau is exhibit 2 in this fight, TWA being case 1. Without Wake, Leonidas has NO chance going forward. Wake was SPANKED for what he did, and rightfully so. These other judges will get it, as they do not make the law their HOBBY.

Leonidas got it all wrong. It is all about ALPA, screwing up its' members because they failed to make a concrete merger policy and changed it all the time. This is all about ALPA and its' allowing windfalls, especially Nicolau. The TWA pilots just made a great case for USAPA in demonstrating how ALPA is a failed union and merger steward. The East pilots have shown ALPA refuses to stand by their membership in a failed arbitration that disregarded ALPA policy. Their removal was absolutely justified. TWA backed it. An American right, to remove a tyrannical union that has lost all sensibility and is all about the money. A fantastic day for American Justice!

Oh look, another argument using a skewed version of the TWA win to delay the implementation of the Nicolau seniority list further. How original (NOT). Where have we heard this before???????

1. Furloughs? IT'S ALPA'S FAULT!
2. Loss of Pension / Retirement? IT'S ALPA'S FAULT!
3. Downgrades? IT'S ALPA'S FAULT!
3. Shrinking Airline? IT'S ALPA'S FAULT!
4. No Date of Hire? IT'S ALPA'S FAULT!
5. Sky green, grass blue? IT'S ALPA'S FAULT!

Oh BTW, Nicolau used the two groups arguments to construct his list. YOU defended your Date-of-Hire so boldly that YOU forgot to emphasize the "importance" of length of service. You left the arbitrator with the exact IDEA of your wish list. He then had to interpolate. He did just that: He placed the most junior actively employed pilot at AWA directly under the most junior actively employed pilot at AAA. No staple job there.

Oh BTW2, Wake was not "spanked'. The Ninth simply said the claim was NOT YET RIPE. If Wake was "spanked", why exactly is Silver going to use the Addington "guts" for the declaration case? Will she get "spanked" too?

Keep spending my USAPA money against me and by 1800 friends. We are funded & prepared to finish this in the courts. We are supported by our families, our friends and other airline employees. The only reason that you are funded is because you are using the AWA pilot's money (dues) and spending our union into a hole. El Presidente can't walk by a courtroom without filing yet another lawsuit. You sir (and the other USAPA supporters) continue to reign as the pariah's in the commercial aviation industry. EVERYONE IS WATCHING, you can not hide anything.

USAPA = We're not "takin' it back', we're takin' it from someone else!

 

[cactusboy53]

Deep? We will hire Haber and Seham to kick Leonidas one more time. Here is your "deep" discussion of how they furloughed and took the pension to make it fly. We will counter with this for your "damages" mantra.

GESTATION PERIOD

US Airways was talking merger with America West ......blah,blah, blah......antitrust laws. This was no surprise--there was very little overlap in the route networks. They will face competition from Southwest nonstops on Philadelphia-Phoenix and Philadelphia-Las Vegas, two of their four hub-to-hub markets. On Charlotte-Las Vegas, AirTran Airways and Independence Air offer one-stop service. Only on Charlotte-Phoenix will competition be limited to legacy carriers' one-stops.

Article Comments

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All of the article quoting in the world DOES NOT change the facts:
1. All three parties (LCC and the two pilot groups) agreed to and signed the Transition Agreement (including all tenets regarding the merged seniority list and the process to get there).
2. Both pilot groups agreed to and signed on for the merger proceedings as per ALPA merger policy.
3. No fault was found in the completion of the seniority list.

Delay is all you have achieved. HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars is what you have lost...NEVER to be regained. In the meantime our airline peers are now making $156-190 an hour for narrow body captain. The regional's are so poorly staffed that they are offering 200-300% credit to fly to the FAA legal limit (in case you can't do the math, that can be up to $225 an hour flying a 50 seat jet!). Time is on Doug's side and our side.

USAPA = What's in your wallet (besides a DOH IOU from some legal eagle)?

 

[Pi brat]

We've just discovered that the River of Delusion runs deeper in USAPA-land than previously thought.

Whatever guys. Think what you want, but in the real world it's clear the company will never deal on seniority. All roads liead to the Nic.

I think it's kind of funny that both sides think that it is as clear as day that the TWA pilot's victory is clear proof of their sides case, and ultimate victory. B)

On another note, does anyone know how long the TWA case took, start to finish?