US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

Why not answer the question? If the law is as you allege, then why didn't the 9th overturn and remand with instructions to dismiss with prejudice saying it could never be a DFR for a union to ignore a binding arbitration? Why didn't the company's case get dismissed? Why isn't USAPA appealing the denial of their motion to dismiss?

There's one answer to the above three questions. Let's see if you have the fortitude to admit you're dead wrong and have been dead wrong for the past four years.

I've explained this before....procedural due process. The merits can't be heard (substantive due process) until procedural due process is complied with first.

The companies case is still in it's infancy.....patience young Padawan.

Good luck.

 

[prechilill]

I've explained this before....procedural due process. The merits can't be heard (substantive due process) until procedural due process is complied with first.

The companies case is still in it's infancy.....patience young Padawan.

Good luck.

Agreed. LOA 93 all the while...

Deep breath- empty out those pockets some more. We are all happy about that. Yes?

 

[Pi brat]

All sides agreed to Nic as the binding arbitrator. All sides said they would live by whatever decision was made by the binding arbitrator.

But, one side went back on their word, didn't they?

Yep.

 

[nevergiveup]

All sides agreed to Nic as the binding arbitrator. All sides said they would live by whatever decision was made by the binding arbitrator.

But, one side went back on their word, didn't they?

I think ALPA was the side that agreed and they turned tail and ran! I personally never agreed to anything.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

That doesn't piss me off. Frankly, I don't hold any grudge against Compton or Gephardt. Compton was just trying to sell the airline as a whole and I don't believe he had any contact with the APA. And of course Gephardt didn't care about seniority. This was all before 9/11 when nobody conceived of there being furloughs.
Darn right it is. USAPA is trying to do exactly what the APA succeeded in doing. The East got lucky with the 9th Circuit 2-1 split. At least Dear Leader Cleary hasn't said he's Supremely Confident on the outcome of Judge Silver's court.

So what your saying is your TWA DOH with conditions and restrictions at AMERICAN wasn't fair?! MM! We didn't get lucky, the law is on our side just like SEHAM has ALPA's number!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

717, just curious if in the damages portion AMERICAN is forced to offer you your DOH back and your job at AA will you tell them to shove it, "NOT FAIR"! MM!

 

[767one]

Hi guys. We wanted to thank you for finally getting all the broken planes fixed. It's nice to have things in our galleys and cabins that actually work. Thanks again for making sure everything is safe. We appreciate it.

Your welcome,

I hope that these things keep gettig written up because if we don't write them up they will never get fixed. Last week when we got to DUB the chillers had quit enroute, there was no audio for the entertainment system, There were no reading lights in the aircraft, and the interphone system was so screwed up that when the f/a's tried to call us from the forward f/a station they ended up with the aft flight attendants station and the other 4 items I can't remember, but we spent almost 45 min. writing up these items. It was a good way to keep us alert for the last couple of hr.!


Regard,

Bob

 

[nic4us]

That's your opinion and you have the right to be wrong!

I believe that had Nic come in a little more towards the center, we wouldn't be here right now. We would have b... and moaned, but it would have been done. You disagree, we will never know.

Nicolau created the Nicolau award, right? The Nicolau award is the log jam, right? Hence, Nicolau created the log jam. The potential was there for it to be a long jam had it gone bad for the west with dual ratification. A friend of mine told me that one of you MEC members told him that they thought you would have to use the "veto" of dual ratification, so maybe you would not have supported it, but other west pilots would have. It's real easy to say what you wouldn't have done since you didn't have to, but I've had plenty of west pilots say they would rather stay separate than accept DOH, so I think they would have used the "veto' had nic come in that way.

Now, the chances of Nic coming up with an award that would have us all sitting around the camp fire singing his praises were slim, right? So no matter what, with dual ratification there was the potential for a log jam. What the east pilots decided to do was to take this here dynamite and throw it in the middle, thereby removing the log jam. Good method? We'll see how it works out by retirement, but I acknowledge that we all have some splinters in our head.

Like that better?

If Nic would have come in more towards the center???

He already gave the east the top 517,,,then 2/3rd of everything else. If he had come more to the center the east would have been compalining even louder because that would have looked worse than the huge favor he did you in the award.

The center would not have given more to the east, what you are saying is if he screwed the West some more, then maybe enough east pilots would have bought off on it. Heck, if he just screwed the West all the way and stapled us, all the east would have bought off on it.

Yes, dual ratification was a potential logjam, but usapa has eliminated that, so what is the hold up now? Hint...if you answere that it is because the West keeps suing, you are as out of touch as Swan and EOA.

 

[nic4us]

That doesn't piss me off. Frankly, I don't hold any grudge against Compton or Gephardt. Compton was just trying to sell the airline as a whole and I don't believe he had any contact with the APA. And of course Gephardt didn't care about seniority. This was all before 9/11 when nobody conceived of there being furloughs.
Darn right it is. USAPA is trying to do exactly what the APA succeeded in doing. The East got lucky with the 9th Circuit 2-1 split. At least Dear Leader Cleary hasn't said he's Supremely Confident on the outcome of Judge Silver's court.

Glad I did not upset you. I was just trying to show that there were so many underlying currents, nobody could make heads or tails of who was doing what to whom.

I would not say usapa got lucky at the 9th, more like the 9th screwed us all. Hopefully Silver will not do the same, however, I am concerned she may just say, this has gone on long enough, the company is being harmed, and for the sake of the other 30,000 employees the West minority will just have to suck it up.

 

[Black Swan]

Haven't you learned your lesson by now? Why is it that you are always the first to crow from the roof tops about "HUGE VICTORIES" only to realize that nothing actually changes for you? You did it with the 9th, with the alleged identity theft, the Cactus 18, and now TWA. Yet you still have shown nothing but delay. Zero progress. I guess delay and distraction is progress in your eyes


You sure about that? Better check your facts. What exactly did Seeham say about the TWA case?

I'm surprised no one mentioned this until now... but nic4us got it right:



BINGO!

TWA pilots were never afforded the opportunity to use ALPA merger policy. APA made a deal with ALPA to protect SOME of the more senior TWA pilots in exchange for giving up rights to negotiation/mediation/arbitration. That was APA's pre-nup. No agreement - no deal - total TWA liquidation and fragmentation. I guess the court found that ALPA did not represent their members, by abandoning their merger policy and letting an arbitrator decide. They made a deal thinking it was the lesser of two evils. It never got to binding arbitration.

East and West is totally different. the East/West was afforded merger policy process all the way through binding arbitration. The OPINION that ALPA merger policy was not followed, was flawed, or was unfair to the east has never been substantiated in any court. One case used merger policy all the through to arbitration, the other didn't even get their voice heard. IMO there is no way anyone can say it's not an apples and oranges comparison.

An interesting side note: The TWA deal with AA was a pre-requisite to the 2000 UA/US attempted merger, as was DC Air, in order to get the Feds approval. No one on the east made a peep about it at the time because they were holding their breath on the UA/US merger. If ALPA had not agreed to APA's terms, and the deal fell through, it would have put the UA/US merger at risk. Now suddenly the east wants to use the "injustice" of the TWA case to support their cause. Perhaps another example of situational ethics?

Have had a bunch of CO jumseaters, mostly Int'l Lately. Interesting things going on. None good, as they want nothing to do with UAL, especially Smisek. He is going to capitalize on the problems, created by the west here with the pay issue. Seems your friends are very good pathfinders with regard to the disparate pay issue. Management loves the concept. Too bad the gun got turned on them also. It took them a long time to figure it out. Now they have the honor of the second worst contract in the industry. But they sure love to bust stones acting like they have a smart deal.
Of course, you still blame the east, and can't keep your face out of our issues.
The UAL guys I know are not thrilled about your greenlighting the furloughed guys and throwing them under the bus. Once they considered the fact their position was lowered relatively, they were not too thrilled with the ALPA way. Speaking of ALPA, they got their jewels firmly in the vise, and it ain't over yet. I hear rumblings at FedEx,and CO. Once the UAL guys finish monkeying the system to suit their global aspirations, they caused more problems worldwide, being THE ALPA. Yes, they, and you are THE ALPA. You certainly dicked up the entire industry with your vision of how the REST of the ALPA should act, in order to get what is good for THE ALPA! What a mess we have made of what was once a nice system. That is what happens when GenX gets involved. Here, and Now, give me everything right now. Please tell us how the OTHER ALPA, the regionals, are going to foot that 1.3 or so BILLION when it comes home. And that isn t the end. Wait till the MDA guys score big on ALPA too! That, is going to be a classic! The west guys should be thanking every East pilot for getting them out of those big assessments coming the ALPA way!

 

[Black Swan]

No. A couple of hundred retirements on the East and this thing is over.

I say they take separate ops any day. Believe me, they have got this place figured out.

 

[Black Swan]

We've just discovered that the River of Delusion runs deeper in USAPA-land than previously thought.

Whatever guys. Think what you want, but in the real world it's clear the company will never deal on seniority. All roads liead to the Nic.

And all the roads led to Gettysburg in 1863. Some wish they had never taken that road.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

ALPA is TITANIC and just spotted the ICEBURG! MM!

 

[Black Swan]

http://www.twapilot.org/pages/ALPA%20Lawsuit.html TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THIS WEBSITE, AOL you crack me up! See ham familiar names!

Seham knows this deal inside out. That is why he wins every time he takes on Leonidas and ALPA

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Seham knows this deal inside out. That is why he wins every time he takes on Leonidas and ALPA

You know AQUA is correct about 1 thing , the company will sell off the WEST before taking on any lawsuits! MM!