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AOL does NOT represent the west. I pay my dues to USAPA and they are my CBA.

No one voted in AOL.

You're an idiot for even thinking that.
 
USAPA really is the electronic union. Cleary doesn't occupy his office (never has) and Tracy does everything from home. Full FPL month after month while the line guys get less and fly trips.

Cleary is leading from behind.

I wonder where USAPAs electronic forum is? Would be nice to point out the lies in the latest NAC update.
 
What is it mad man? Do you have plenty of time or are you all going to retire very soon? What agreement do you think you need to change the rules on again?

We need relief from east pilots trying to steal our jobs, from Cleary filing constant law suits, usapa making stupid decisions, east pilots trying to put this airline out of business to prove what tough guys you all think you are.

Oh yes the west is ready to play this out. We all know that a contract is probably 5 years away. If you are ready to play this out tell your leadership to expedite the trial and stop dragging their feet. Most of the west will still be here 5 years from now. Will you be? How about the guys retiring in 5 years? Are they willing to retire on LOA 93 just to help the junior guy in the right seat?

Let's get to the trial. Tell usapa to stop delaying. What are you guys afraid of? Another third party telling you man up and live up to your agreements.
Help is availible through your company benefits!
 
One last thing. The "west has no separate group to represent them is bull. AOL has become the representitive of the west. They just don't have the liablity because the west has freely given them the priviledge while USAPA has the legal burden.
PI, you are completely wrong. There is only one labor representative for US Airways pilots and that is USAPA. AOL is a funding mechanism for West pilots to hire attorneys and defend the rights of the West against the union. There is no legal recognition of AOL other than its corporate form as an LLC in the State of Arizona. Each West pilot has an individual claim against the union for violating its DFR, just like each TWA pilot has an individual claim against ALPA. When courts are faced with the prospect of hundreds, thousands or millions of claims against one defendant, then the claims are normally bundled together as a class. That's what class actions are: a means to roll hundreds, thousands or perhaps millions of trials into one. The class representatives can bind the class as a whole, but only to the issue being litigated. "Settling" is something two labor groups can do through their representatives, but the Addington class reps are not labor representatives. The judicial process will not mete out a "compromise" as between East and West, and the reason is why we're in court to begin with. Addington was a yes/no legal issue: did USAPA breach its DFR by disregarding the Nicolau? The company's dec action is likewise a yes/no legal issue: is use (or non-use) of the Nicolau a violation of the RLA? Notice that neither moves toward a "solution." It can't because negotiating is not in the purview of the courts. The possibility of a "solution" died on April 18th 2008 when USAPA became the bargaining agent and replaced two labor representatives with just one. I've analogized before using tooth paste leaving the tube. That's where we're at. No judge will allow the Addington class reps to cut a deal as doing so is clearly beyond the scope of their class rep status. Not trying to be difficult, but that's the reality. Don Iorio warned you all about this leading up to the election.
 
What is it mad man? Do you have plenty of time or are you all going to retire very soon? What agreement do you think you need to change the rules on again?

We need relief from east pilots trying to steal our jobs, from Cleary filing constant law suits, usapa making stupid decisions, east pilots trying to put this airline out of business to prove what tough guys you all think you are.

Oh yes the west is ready to play this out. We all know that a contract is probably 5 years away. If you are ready to play this out tell your leadership to expedite the trial and stop dragging their feet. Most of the west will still be here 5 years from now. Will you be? How about the guys retiring in 5 years? Are they willing to retire on LOA 93 just to help the junior guy in the right seat?

Let's get to the trial. Tell usapa to stop delaying. What are you guys afraid of? Another third party telling you man up and live up to your agreements.
Plenty of time, never heard me complain about seperate ops, LOA93, Cleary, Who is trying to steal your job? Delusional you are my friend, you have a job on a seniority list remember, how will it go away? Contract in 5 years? Alot can happen in 5years, especially in this world economy, I'll be retired from USAIRWAYS, yes and not only am I prepared to I probably will retire on 93, Hey moron if you get your head out of the sand you might just see it aint USAPA stalling, where's the F/A's CBA? MM! Turn down your A/C!
 
I'd never had much dealing withthe legal system until this mess. Although it is based on written laws, it almost seems like religion with different parties reading ito the laws what they want them to mean. I've often written that off as the two legal teams determing what is meant by how much money it put in their pockets.

If you remove your personal views from this you can see that there is no way USAPA can support importing from Addington. That have claimed from early on that Judge Wake mishandled the case, so if they were to say sure, let it in, it would look pretty stupid. As long as they client supports the legal team, I don't see how they can change the attitude now.

It was the same with the west. What would have happened to your support had the legal team not fought all the way to the SCOTUS? Might have planted some seeds of doubt.

Fro one side to scream about the other delaying is b.s. We have to accept that unless we decide to try something else each side with do everything possible to win.

One last thing. The "west has no separate group to represent them is bull. AOL has become the representitive of the west. They just don't have the liablity because the west has freely given them the priviledge while USAPA has the legal burden.
As long as they client supports the legal team,

Who exactly is the client? Is it the line pilot? Do any of you get a vote or say in the legal direction of the litagation? Are the west pilots clients? We are members and usapa has to represent us fairly. Are the west pilots being represented by usapa by having to pay for our own defense in addition to dues for a union that is fighting against what we want. Is Cleary the client and it is him that gets to decide the legal direction only?

How is it that usapa represents the west when as you say you are trying to WIN? That clearly implys that usapa is trying to make the west lose. Fair treatment by my union?
 
PI, you are completely wrong. There is only one labor representative for US Airways pilots and that is USAPA. AOL is a funding mechanism for West pilots to hire attorneys and defend the rights of the West against the union. There is no legal recognition of AOL other than its corporate form as an LLC in the State of Arizona. Each West pilot has an individual claim against the union for violating its DFR, just like each TWA pilot has an individual claim against ALPA. When courts are faced with the prospect of hundreds, thousands or millions of claims against one defendant, then the claims are normally bundled together as a class. That's what class actions are: a means to roll hundreds, thousands or perhaps millions of trials into one. The class representatives can bind the class as a whole, but only to the issue being litigated. "Settling" is something two labor groups can do through their representatives, but the Addington class reps are not labor representatives. The judicial process will not mete out a "compromise" as between East and West, and the reason is why we're in court to begin with. Addington was a yes/no legal issue: did USAPA breach its DFR by disregarding the Nicolau? The company's dec action is likewise a yes/no legal issue: is use (or non-use) of the Nicolau a violation of the RLA? Notice that neither moves toward a "solution." It can't because negotiating is not in the purview of the courts. The possibility of a "solution" died on April 18th 2008 when USAPA became the bargaining agent and replaced two labor representatives with just one. I've analogized before using tooth paste leaving the tube. That's where we're at. No judge will allow the Addington class reps to cut a deal as doing so is clearly beyond the scope of their class rep status. Not trying to be difficult, but that's the reality. Don Iorio warned you all about this leading up to the election.
That's why ALPA is gone, they talked out their a$$!
 
As long as they client supports the legal team,

Who exactly is the client? Is it the line pilot? Do any of you get a vote or say in the legal direction of the litagation? Are the west pilots clients? We are members and usapa has to represent us fairly. Are the west pilots being represented by usapa by having to pay for our own defense in addition to dues for a union that is fighting against what we want. Is Cleary the client and it is him that gets to decide the legal direction only?

How is it that usapa represents the west when as you say you are trying to WIN? That clearly implys that usapa is trying to make the west lose. Fair treatment by my union?
Well if you don't like it maybe you should vote in different reps, just like you said we should have done under ALPA! MM!
 
PI, you are completely wrong. There is only one labor representative for US Airways pilots and that is USAPA. AOL is a funding mechanism for West pilots to hire attorneys and defend the rights of the West against the union. There is no legal recognition of AOL other than its corporate form as an LLC in the State of Arizona. Each West pilot has an individual claim against the union for violating its DFR, just like each TWA pilot has an individual claim against ALPA. When courts are faced with the prospect of hundreds, thousands or millions of claims against one defendant, then the claims are normally bundled together as a class. That's what class actions are: a means to roll hundreds, thousands or perhaps millions of trials into one. The class representatives can bind the class as a whole, but only to the issue being litigated. "Settling" is something two labor groups can do through their representatives, but the Addington class reps are not labor representatives. The judicial process will not mete out a "compromise" as between East and West, and the reason is why we're in court to begin with. Addington was a yes/no legal issue: did USAPA breach its DFR by disregarding the Nicolau? The company's dec action is likewise a yes/no legal issue: is use (or non-use) of the Nicolau a violation of the RLA? Notice that neither moves toward a "solution." It can't because negotiating is not in the purview of the courts. The possibility of a "solution" died on April 18th 2008 when USAPA became the bargaining agent and replaced two labor representatives with just one. I've analogized before using tooth paste leaving the tube. That's where we're at. No judge will allow the Addington class reps to cut a deal as doing so is clearly beyond the scope of their class rep status. Not trying to be difficult, but that's the reality. Don Iorio warned you all about this leading up to the election.


Of course you are right about the legal part, but AOL(and i guess AWAPPA, but AOL seems to be prime form what my friends tell me) has become the defacto reps of the west. Of course the can't negotiate, but what if they were never formed? What if they disolved? Wouldn't that change things? They provide a lot of guidance to the west pilots and it seems that the west pilots look to them for advice.
 
As long as they client supports the legal team,

Who exactly is the client? Is it the line pilot? Do any of you get a vote or say in the legal direction of the litagation? Are the west pilots clients? We are members and usapa has to represent us fairly. Are the west pilots being represented by usapa by having to pay for our own defense in addition to dues for a union that is fighting against what we want. Is Cleary the client and it is him that gets to decide the legal direction only?

How is it that usapa represents the west when as you say you are trying to WIN? That clearly implys that usapa is trying to make the west lose. Fair treatment by my union?

Absolutley the line pilot! If the MIGS don't like what is happening, there are methods to change it. There was at least one leader of AOL that was looking at a recall attempt of Cleary, but EF said no, they didn't want that as he was the west's best friend. YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE REPRESENTED BY USAPA! Admit it. You want them to trample on your rights so you can build the best case for DFR II if come to it. Your whining about it is getting old.

Remember that Cleary didn't have to your preisdent. If the west had all been MIGS and voted in a block for a president that could win, we wouldn't be dealing with him.

USAPA claim is that a win is a win for us all. I don't expect you to believe that, but you don't expect them to say otherwise, do you?
 
Of course you are right about the legal part, but AOL(and i guess AWAPPA, but AOL seems to be prime form what my friends tell me) has become the defacto reps of the west. Of course the can't negotiate, but what if they were never formed? What if they disolved? Wouldn't that change things? They provide a lot of guidance to the west pilots and it seems that the west pilots look to them for advice.
The situation is now an either/or. Whatever guidance is provided by West attorneys, it's completely within the legal boundary of the East/West situation: either Nic or no Nic. It's not either Nic vs DOH. It's not Nic vs. LOS. It's not Nic vs. lots of C&Rs. The legal situation that the East and West are in is straight forward: use or nonuse of the Nicolau. USAPA under the advice of Lee Seham brought us to this and the politics must make sense to a deranged idiot like Cleary. The East has all along said that the Nic will never fly. Great. You're now in a situation where your choice is either the Nic and a payraise, or no Nic and LOA93. Time is not on the side of the non-Nic/LOA93 option. We can either move on now with the Nic or we'll do it in one, two, three or five years from now. Either way, the Nicolau is inevitable.
 
The situation is now an either/or. Whatever guidance is provided by West attorneys, it's completely within the legal boundary of the East/West situation: either Nic or no Nic. It's not either Nic vs DOH. It's not Nic vs. LOS. It's not Nic vs. lots of C&Rs. The legal situation that the East and West are in is straight forward: use or nonuse of the Nicolau. USAPA under the advice of Lee Seham brought us to this and the politics must make sense to a deranged idiot like Cleary. The East has all along said that the Nic will never fly. Great. You're now in a situation where your choice is either the Nic and a payraise, or no Nic and LOA93. Time is not on the side of the non-Nic/LOA93 option. We can either move on now with the Nic or we'll do it in one, two, three or five years from now. Either way, the Nicolau is inevitable.
Your contention that those are the only options afforded to everyone in the situation is humerous at best! MM!
 
The situation is now an either/or. Whatever guidance is provided by West attorneys, it's completely within the legal boundary of the East/West situation: either Nic or no Nic. It's not either Nic vs DOH. It's not Nic vs. LOS. It's not Nic vs. lots of C&Rs. The legal situation that the East and West are in is straight forward: use or nonuse of the Nicolau. USAPA under the advice of Lee Seham brought us to this and the politics must make sense to a deranged idiot like Cleary. The East has all along said that the Nic will never fly. Great. You're now in a situation where your choice is either the Nic and a payraise, or no Nic and LOA93. Time is not on the side of the non-Nic/LOA93 option. We can either move on now with the Nic or we'll do it in one, two, three or five years from now. Either way, the Nicolau is inevitable.

That is your opinion, it is not a fact and some folks disagree with you. You may turn out to be right, I don't know.

You are right about what we have right now and I guess we are all happy enough to not change.
 
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