US Pilots Labor Discussion

[aquagreen73s]

Your contention that those are the only options afforded to everyone in the situation is humerous at best! MM!

Is there an ignore function? A certain somebody is proving time again to be a total waste of bandwidth.

 

[luvthe9]

I hold out hope that your mentality is representative of a very small percentage of east pilots, otherwise the rest of us - East and West - are fked.

No we all pretty much think that way, and it's mostly the west that will be "fked" you guys are way way younger than us, you also might want to think about going else here.

 

[luvn737s]

No we all pretty much think that way,

Prove it. Let's vote on a contract with improvements and Nic.

Oh, now you're not so sure, eh? 😛

 

[Pi brat]

Hey Aqua maybe you can answer a question for me. Why does the TA have to be changed for DOH to be used in a new contract? It seems to me that the company lawyer took that position in front of Silver, and that would bolster the case for collusion. But, I don't get it. There are many things in the TA that may or may not carry over to the new contract, so what makes this section different? As you guys have said, the TA called for a method fo doing the SLI. It was done and accepted by the company, so that part is over. But, USAPA wants to modify section 22, just like scheduling may be modified or the min fleet. I don't see the difference. I can see how you have a DFR claim against USAPA only if they do so in a way that doesn't look out for your best interests, but I don't see it for the company.

I'd like your POV because I've never gotten that. Sorry if I've missed it before.

 

[luvn737s]

Didn't the company pay both sides for the seniority integration agreement already?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Is there an ignore function? A certain somebody is proving time again to be a total waste of bandwidth.

To be ignorant of one's ignorance is the malady of ignorance! MM!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Hey Aqua maybe you can answer a question for me. Why does the TA have to be changed for DOH to be used in a new contract?

The TA explicitly mentions that ALPA merger policy is to be used to integrate seniority lists. Mind you, that is completely different from the concept of who the bargaining agent it. For example, nothing could have prevented SWA and Frontier from incorporating ALPA merger policy if the parties had so desired. It's the merger policy that controls our situation regardless of who the bargaining agent is or what the name of the company becomes.

To modify the TA requires that the company deal with the union. The union is an agent and is bound to represent all its principals (pilots) fairly. So the company is on the other end of the table and now the union wants to change the TA so that an arbitration is ignored and replaced with something else. The immediate question is: why? That's at the heart of the DFR case- Addington didn't go into the "what," but rather the "why" and the answer is that the purpose is to benefit one over the other. That's a DFR. Where the company comes in is that they can be held liable for cutting a deal with a union when that deal turns out to be a violation of the union's DFR. That's why the company is now in federal court.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Here are the relevant sections of the TA (emphasis mine):

WHEREAS, US Airways Group, AWHC, US Airways and America West (together, the “Airline Parties”) intend that, following the consummation of the Merger Agreement, America West and US Airways will continue to operate with two separate pilot workforces until the two pilot workforces are integrated under the provisions herein

The Parties will continue to recognize each of the America West and US Airways
MECs as to their authority and responsibility with respect to their respective
collective bargaining agreements until the merger of the two MECs.

The combining of the America West and US Airways MECs will be governed by
the Association’s Constitution and By-Laws and its Merger and Fragmentation
Policy (“ALPA Merger Policy”).

The seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be
integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline
Parties for acceptance.

 

[fodase]

The seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be
integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline
Parties for acceptance.

Btw, the airline parties accepted and paid for the list, meaning that portion of the ta is over and complied with. This is exactly why any list that usapa comes up with will be compared to the nic.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Btw, the airline parties accepted and paid for the list, meaning that portion of the ta is over and complied with. This is exactly why any list that usapa comes up with will be compared to the nic.

Just to make that last point finer, the fact that there is something else being generated raises the question of why the union is doing this. By stating to everyone that the reason is because the Nicolau is "unfair" is really an admission to the DFR breach. USAPA is saying: "Nicolau was unfair so we're making the integration fair, and we're doing it by taking what would have been the list and rearranging it by DOH." The problem with that is every West pilot loses and every East pilot gains under DOH. That answers the "why." DFR.

The company will NEVER deal so long as they face liability for entering into a JCBA that doesn't incorporate the Nicolau. Why would they? Why should they?

 

[Pi brat]

The TA explicitly mentions that ALPA merger policy is to be used to integrate seniority lists. Mind you, that is completely different from the concept of who the bargaining agent it. For example, nothing could have prevented SWA and Frontier from incorporating ALPA merger policy if the parties had so desired. It's the merger policy that controls our situation regardless of who the bargaining agent is or what the name of the company becomes.

To modify the TA requires that the company deal with the union. The union is an agent and is bound to represent all its principals (pilots) fairly. So the company is on the other end of the table and now the union wants to change the TA so that an arbitration is ignored and replaced with something else. The immediate question is: why? That's at the heart of the DFR case- Addington didn't go into the "what," but rather the "why" and the answer is that the purpose is to benefit one over the other. That's a DFR. Where the company comes in is that they can be held liable for cutting a deal with a union when that deal turns out to be a violation of the union's DFR. That's why the company is now in federal court.

I get that and I agree, but that is done. The TA was followed and the nic is indeed in the can. The question is does it have to be used and/or can it ever be modified. I don't see where the TA addresses the issue and as a matter of fact, Doug, in a quick blurb in a crew news said that the company has honored the TA and the TA says nothing about implementation.

Like I said, the TA calls for min fleet numbers, but that doesn't mean that those numbers can't/won't change in a new contract, so what makes this section different?

 

[Pi brat]

Btw, the airline parties accepted and paid for the list, meaning that portion of the ta is over and complied with. This is exactly why any list that usapa comes up with will be compared to the nic.

Your post seems to support my premise fodase. If that portion of the TA is over, then why would the union negotiating to change it have anything to do with the TA?

 

[Pi brat]

Here are the relevant sections of the TA (emphasis mine):

I know all those sections, but I see nothing that says section 22 will the Nic for ever and ever, unaltered.

 

[Res Judicata]

I know all those sections, but I see nothing that says section 22 will the Nic for ever and ever, unaltered.

What do you think the INTENTION was? Did you guys make a habit out of re-negotiating your seniority lists every contract? Which Labor union's do that BTW?

Believe what you want, you're entitled. But please, don't keep insulting our collective intelligences. You know Damn well what the intent of the T.A. is. Doug Parker does too. Nothing pisses me off more about Doug Weiser than when he gets up in front of the pilots and plays stupid. It's insulting.

 

[Pi brat]

Just to make that last point finer, the fact that there is something else being generated raises the question of why the union is doing this. By stating to everyone that the reason is because the Nicolau is "unfair" is really an admission to the DFR breach. USAPA is saying: "Nicolau was unfair so we're making the integration fair, and we're doing it by taking what would have been the list and rearranging it by DOH." The problem with that is every West pilot loses and every East pilot gains under DOH. That answers the "why." DFR.

The company will NEVER deal so long as they face liability for entering into a JCBA that doesn't incorporate the Nicolau. Why would they? Why should they?

Now that I can understand and it has always been what I wondered about with USAPA's road.

As far as why the company would go along, that would be the same reason they do anything-if it benefits them and they think they can get away with it!