US Pilots Labor Discussion

[aquagreen73s]

Aqua,

I would strongly disagree with two of your opinions.

First USAPA is saying an unmodified Nic joint contract is impossible because it is not ratifiable. Would you vote or expect others to vote to give away 15 years of seniority and perhaps $1 million plus of your career earnings in exchange for something of little or no value?

Second the West no longer has separate union representation but they still could vote via a majority of the minority and/or act as a group to accept or reject a USAPA proposed DOH deal. Would most West pilots prefer to be able to bid higher paying and more senior East vacancies vs. remaining in lower paying or furloughed West positions? The Nic award has zero value to West pilots because the TA states clearly that it can not be used without ratification which for now is clearly impossible.

Finally is USAPA's DOH seniority proposal a DFR if it benefits all pilots East and West and leads to a ratifiable contract that increases the total pay and benefits of the entire pilot group?

The problem is the West pilots still believe the Nic award has value but it will always only be a lottery ticket that can't be cashed. USAPA is trying to negotiate a path to higher paying positions for the West pilots and it makes no difference to East pilots whether you are successful or not in blocking that path.

underpants

Youu're missing the point entirely. Changing section 22 will result in DFR litigation. It only takes one west or east pilot to file it. Chances are, you'll have 1800 west pilots ready to litigate. The company knows it, and they also know that the revised section 22 will probably be found to be a DFR. It happened in a matter of two hours in the Addington trial, and all of that evidence is still documented and ready for DFR II. Since the company cut a deal with USAPA, then they know that they face liability as well. Compare Rakestraw's 539 who only moved down 570 numbers (less than 10% of the list) to what USAPA is trying to do to 1800 west pilots. The damages will be in line with what TWA pilots are going to get. So now ask yourself, if you're Doug Parker, why on Earth would you want to negotiate anything? For what? To get 2/3 of your pilots off a BK contract?

The company will NEVER go with an altered Nic. If keeping the section 22 ball in the air keeps the East on LOA93, then I'd wager the company is more than happy to accommodate you. That's the reality. Who cares anyway. In another five or seven years this will all be moot anyway. Enough newhires will be on the property to not care either way. Then the majority will remove the only obstacle to a contract: DOH.

 

[Pi brat]

Where do you get the notion that Silver has heartburn?

From the transcript where she asked them had they tried to negotiate.

Forget I asked. Every time I try to have a conversation the tools come out. Think I'd learn huh?

 

[Pi brat]

You support scabs. That's the bottom line. That's why you have no rebuttal because you know how abhorrent your pilot groups behavior has been. There is no defense.

Tool # 1. Not a scab, don't support them. When you guys have nothing else, that's what you pull out.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Witholding a vote is not USAPA's job. They cannot and should not be the ones to prejudge the vote of the membership. They must present a TA inclusive of Nic to the membership (with it's full endorsement no less) in order to avoid DFR actions.

If it fails, then they have every right to open new negotiations to secure a contract, which may take many bites at the apple as the membership chooses what aspects of a contract are important to them.

Do you suppose USAPA is worried that the membership would choose a Nic inclusive contract? Why do you support them restricting the options available unless delay is the lynchpin of their strategy, which harms the west and triggers the DFR.

Anywhere, anybody can sue USAPA for a DFR, how do you know which pieces of the apple as the membership chooses, are important to them?, File another DFR but you can be rest assurred USAPA will not, endorse , promote, or offer a contract for ratification that doesn't have a rats ass chance of passing! No one has prejudiced any vote, as your boy doug said , "We aint even close!"

 

[aquagreen73s]

From the transcript where she asked them had they tried to negotiate.

Forget I asked. Every time I try to have a conversation the tools come out. Think I'd learn huh?

I know what you're talking about and I really have no idea why she was thinking out loud like she apparently was. I was there and I sensed an irritation in her. She's a federal judge who had just become the chief judge of Arizona and she's got a lot on her plate. This case is a waste of her time. I'd recommend anyone to go back and read the transcript where this exchange between Judge S and Siegel takes place. Note the response. It's not the company's position to negotiate seniority. Siegel contrasted negotiating seniority with pay, work rules, etc. Siegel flat out said that the company cannot negotiate seniority and it appeared from my vantage point that she agreed because she was nodding her head yes as Siegel was responding.

 

[luvthe9]

You support scabs. That's the bottom line. That's why you have no rebuttal because you know how abhorrent your pilot groups behavior has been. There is no defense.

Res, I think it's time for a refresher course for you and your friends about scabs, here is you refresher course. Please read about your hero Dan Cloud!!!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Anywhere, anybody can sue USAPA for a DFR, how do you know which pieces of the apple as the membership chooses, are important to them?, File another DFR but you can be rest assurred USAPA will not, endorse , promote, or offer a contract for ratification that doesn't have a rats ass chance of passing! No one has prejudiced any vote, as your boy doug said , "We aint even close!"

Not all DFR claims are the same. Some are more potent than others. A union monkeying with a binding arbitration is a sure way to get their a$$e$ handed to them down the road. The problem for you is that the company knows they can be sucked into such a suit under a hybrid DFR theory. If you're Parker, do you really want to go there? Why when 2/3 of your pilots are on BK wages.

 

[cleardirect]

I get that and I agree, but that is done. The TA was followed and the nic is indeed in the can. The question is does it have to be used and/or can it ever be modified. I don't see where the TA addresses the issue and as a matter of fact, Doug, in a quick blurb in a crew news said that the company has honored the TA and the TA says nothing about implementation.

Like I said, the TA calls for min fleet numbers, but that doesn't mean that those numbers can't/won't change in a new contract, so what makes this section different?

I think this may answer your question about why the T/A is important. From the hearing Judge Silver.

Page 14.
Mr Siegel: Mr. Harper's clients, on the other hand, have vigorously written letters saying, "You can't accept that because you will be colluding." And there are cases that say there's a theory. And you know that it's an illegal proposal because the jury already said so. The nullification was on ripeness but not on merits. We are in a rock and a hard place on that, Your Honor. We were not at the time the Addington case was filed. We didn't file a declaratory judgment action in their case because we expected this legal fight between these two groups of pilots would be resolved. We hoped it would be.

We actually do not have a dog in the hunt on this seniority list. We are neutral. We accepted the Nicolau list when the predecessor union presented it to us because we had promised we would in the transition collective bargaining agreement. A new union comes in. They want to amend the transition agreement. They want us to accept a non-Nicolau list, but we have a conundrum. We have this true Hobson's choice.

Page 22.
Mr. Seigel: So the negotiations have to be completed and each side has to make proposals and counter proposals. That is on the non-senority side.

On the seniority issue, the company has to tell the union whether or not it will or will not amend the transition agreement and acquiesce to a non-Nicolau seniority list. We have to answer that question and we don't know -- Your Honor, the only thought I want to emphasize is the reason we filed is because we don't know whether that proposal is legal or not. We're concerned because we are aware of a jury verdict that found it to be illegal. We have a ripeness ruling from the Ninth Circuit, and we have a demand from the union that we accept it, the non-Nicolau list.

As you can see the company’s attorneys believe that they are bound by the transition agreement to use the Nicolau. It is usapa that wants/needs to amend the T/A to allow the company to use something else. But this leads to the question. What is the legitimate union objective of changing an arbitrated list or amending the T/A? Does it benefit one side over the other? Do the east pilots benefit by DOH and the west pilots suffer under DOH. If usapa decided to amend the T/A and keep the east min block but give away the west min block and shift it east, would that be a DFR?

 

[cleardirect]

Aqua,

I would strongly disagree with two of your opinions.

First USAPA is saying an unmodified Nic joint contract is impossible because it is not ratifiable. Would you vote or expect others to vote to give away 15 years of seniority and perhaps $1 million plus of your career earnings in exchange for something of little or no value?

Second the West no longer has separate union representation but they still could vote via a majority of the minority and/or act as a group to accept or reject a USAPA proposed DOH deal. Would most West pilots prefer to be able to bid higher paying and more senior East vacancies vs. remaining in lower paying or furloughed West positions? The Nic award has zero value to West pilots because the TA states clearly that it can not be used without ratification which for now is clearly impossible.

Finally is USAPA's DOH seniority proposal a DFR if it benefits all pilots East and West and leads to a ratifiable contract that increases the total pay and benefits of the entire pilot group?

The problem is the West pilots still believe the Nic award has value but it will always only be a lottery ticket that can't be cashed. USAPA is trying to negotiate a path to higher paying positions for the West pilots and it makes no difference to East pilots whether you are successful or not in blocking that path.

underpants

So tell us. What kind of increase is usapa going to get for the west? So far every update I have seen from the NAC is a concession for the west and an increase for the east. Just the Kirby proposal the east gets 95% of the money and increases. Has usapa been able to negotiate anything higher than that in the last 3 years? Even if they manage to get something the east is still going to get 90% of the benefit of the next contract. What possible amount of money do you think the rookie NAC is going to be able to get the west that would have us accept seeing you east guys get 90% of the contract and 85% of the seniority?

Do you think the NAC can get $180.00 per hour? East gets a $55 per hour raise, 10 days more vacation, much improved work rules and other benefits. The west gets $35 per hour no more vacation, higher insurance costs, loss of STD and LTD, outdated work rules and line bidding. Tell us what is in it for the west that would make us accept DOH and a crap contract? While you guys get everything after screwing the west for 6 years?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Not all DFR claims are the same. Some are more potent than others. A union monkeying with a binding arbitration is a sure way to get their a$$e$ handed to them down the road. The problem for you is that the company knows they can be sucked into such a suit under a hybrid DFR theory. If you're Parker, do you really want to go there? Why when 2/3 of your pilots are on BK wages.

DFR is DFR, A union under the RLA has an extreme latitude range, Well the company has 3 choices, 1- Split it up sell in pieces 2, Go forward with the DJ, and take a chance you don't get back into BK and liquidation, before your competition, and oil squeezes you! 3 Settle with USAPA and let USAPA settle their own internal dispute! BTW ADDINGTON AND PARKER opted the company out in front of WAKE, the F/a's have not settled, where do you think it's going? So USAPA really isn't stalling!

 

[fodase]

From the transcript where she asked them had they tried to negotiate.

I don't know if it means anything, but if you read the transcripts judge Silver only comments about negotiating were along the lines of offering the east more money to accept the Nic. BTW she also told the company that they knew very well what they had to do to not get sued.

 

[traderjake]

File another DFR but you can be rest assurred USAPA will not, endorse , promote, or offer a contract for ratification that doesn't have a rats ass chance of passing!

USAPA leadership won't put a contract with the Nicolau Award out for a vote because they're cowards.

They know a contract with a decent pay raise would pass.

 

[cleardirect]

DFR is DFR, A union under the RLA has an extreme latitude range, Well the company has 3 choices, 1- Split it up sell in pieces 2, Go forward with the DJ, and take a chance you don't get back into BK and liquidation, before your competition, and oil squeezes you! 3 Settle with USAPA and let USAPA settle their own internal dispute! BTW ADDINGTON AND PARKER opted the company out in front of WAKE, the F/a's have not settled, where do you think it's going? So USAPA really isn't stalling!

Those are the only 3 options you see? Really these 3 things is the only way this thing will end? No other possible outcome that you can think of?

Hope you never have a problem in an airplane if that is the limited thinking you have.

 

[cleardirect]

From the transcript where she asked them had they tried to negotiate.

Forget I asked. Every time I try to have a conversation the tools come out. Think I'd learn huh?

This part?

THE COURT: But you know how you could avoid being
21 sued by the West Pilots; and if you negotiated with the union
22 such that they decided to give up something in order that you
23 avoid a suit by the West Pilots, isn't that essentially what
24 negotiations are all about?

MR. SIEGEL: Your Honor, with all respect, on this
1 subject, it's yes or no. We're not sitting here bargaining a
2 pay rate or a pension plan.

 

[Barrister]

I don't know if it means anything, but if you read the transcripts judge Silver only comments about negotiating were along the lines of offering the east more money to accept the Nic. BTW she also told the company that they knew very well what they had to do to not get sued.

Do you read that to mean accept nothing less than NIC....then why was she talking about negotiation
she meant do a deal that both sides will find acceptable!!!!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB