USA320Pilot
Veteran
- Joined
- May 18, 2003
- Messages
- 8,175
- Reaction score
- 1,539
US Pilots Labor Discussion
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
- Status
Ask the disciples of Lorenzo from EAL how they fared when they allied against their own for Lorenzo.
There will never be solidarity amongst labor like there was at Eastern, stop living in the past.
The east pilots are no friend of labor, they screwed the non union workers in 92, screwed the IAM M&R in 92, have always been the first group to cave and give concessions to the company.
You have no idea what trade unionism is all about.
I liken the east pilots to little kids, if they cant win, they are gonna take their bat and ball and go home and throw a temper tantrum.
Grow up, be adults and accept responsibility.
The east pilots are no friend of labor, they screwed the non union workers in 92, screwed the IAM M&R in 92, have always been the first group to cave and give concessions to the company.
You have no idea what trade unionism is all about.
I liken the east pilots to little kids, if they cant win, they are gonna take their bat and ball and go home and throw a temper tantrum.
Grow up, be adults and accept responsibility.
toganoflex
Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2008
- Messages
- 557
- Reaction score
- 381
Now that's a great post.
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...lots-lose.html
American Airlines pilots lose help of larger union
By Terry Maxon/Reporter
tmaxon@dallasnews.com
7:49 PM on Tue., Aug. 2, 2011 |
The Air Line Pilots Association won't be helping the Allied Pilots Association any more in APA's contract talks with American Airlines.
It appears that ALPA was insulted by comments made out of the APA's Boston base, and ended its cooperative arrangement in which it provided a professional negotiator and research assistance to the American Airlines union.
APA president David Bates blamed the "inflammatory" remarks in an email from the Boston base chairman to his members, joined in by New York leadership, for causing the pullout.
"So, not only is the APA-ALPA cooperative relationship now seriously damaged, but our ongoing contract negotiations have also been adversely affected," Bates said in a letter to members. "Simultaneously losing Mr. [ALPA professional negotiator Seth] Rosen's expertise and the quantitative analysis capabilities of ALPA Economic and Financial Analysis represents a major setback."
Bates also said that the National Mediation Board may see the ALPA withdrawal "as an indication that the APA leadership is in disarray and unprepared to see negotiations through to their conclusion."
Keep reading for the Boston comments and the Bates letter.
From a July 26 hotline from Boston base chairman Steve Bacon that upset Bates and ALPA:
"I cannot fathom anyone expecting to have a unified voice of labor when the largest Pilot labor organization speaks for the commuters and regionals over the wishes of the majors, many of them belonging to and paying the lion's share of the dues. They have screwed us on Duty time, ATP Requirements, age 65, security screening, and drug testing, as well, and as much as their own members. "The support we 'get' for the negotiating coach (Professional Negotiator) and EF+A committee we 'get ' for a half million / year. There is no benevolence, just business. With their loss of the TWA DFR suit, ALPA is left holding the bag for 1.2 billion dollars. (pending appeal) It's a good time for the major airlines to start thinking about organizing a pilots union that represents the issues of our craft and trade, external to ALPA, and without it's 300K plus salaries.
" ALPA is presently attempting to organize Jet Blue. You can read about it at jetblueoc.org I am personally Very much in favor of Jet Blue organizing, I just question whom they are being courted by. I will not support it. I think (opinion) their pilots would be better served by becoming an independent and associating with CAPA so our common interests can be heard without having to placate the non-ancillary constituencies. Short of that, labor unity isn't going to be achieved any sooner than $3.00 Red Sox tickets."
Dave Bates' "You Should Have the Final Say" message to members:
"Last month marked one year in office for APA's current National Officers. Vice President First Officer Tony Chapman, Secretary-Treasurer First Officer Scott Shankland and I ran for office as a team committed to a common philosophy and to working together. One year later, our partnership remains stronger than ever. "I want to use this opportunity to briefly recap what we said we would do if elected--versus what we have done during the past year--and also discuss a very serious situation that has developed.
"During the campaign, we committed ourselves to being as transparent as possible about what we planned to do. So how closely have we adhered to the plan we presented?
"We said we would develop a more professional, business-like relationship with AMR management--we have.
"We said we would seek to establish a better relationship between APA and the American Airlines Flight Department--and we have.
"We said we would foster a much closer working relationship with other pilot unions in the United States and around the world--and we have.
"We said we would run APA like a business, taking great care in our handling of the membership's money--and we have. In our first year alone, we saved more than $2 million through careful cost control.
"We said we would establish productive relationships with the security analysts, institutional investors and others with a financial interest in AMR--and we have. As a result of this initiative, APA's credibility on Wall Street has increased significantly and I now regularly receive invitations to provide the pilots' point of view at various industry forums organized by financial institutions. There are many strategic reasons why these financial community relationships are important to APA's pilots.
"I said I would move my family to Texas (joining Tony and Scott) so I could be available to APA and its members 24/7--and I have.
"We said we would hire a professional negotiator--and we did. Thanks to the bridges we built with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), we were able to access the expertise of Mr. Seth Rosen, the country's most experienced pilot-side Railway Labor Act negotiator who is known and respected around the world. We also contracted with ALPA's Economic and Financial Analysis group to bolster our quantitative analysis capabilities to support our negotiating goals, a further byproduct of the closer working relationship between our two unions.
"When Tony, Scott and I campaigned last year, we identified getting the contract we all deserve as our No. 1 priority. Our assessment was that "we have little chance of negotiating a restorative contract without a professional business relationship with AA management." Despite what some naysayers assert, we have made significant progress during the past few months because of our willingness to engage management and effectively express the concerns of AA's pilots. Thanks primarily to the lines of communications we established with management, your National Officers have been included in discussions about major corporate decisions such as aircraft purchases and other future plans.
"While I share your frustration with the time it has taken, I believe we had finally set a course to accomplishing our No. 1 priority. Unfortunately, our contractual efforts have now been seriously jeopardized by the actions of a few APA domicile representatives. In an inflammatory e-mail message to the BOS Domicile last week, BOS Domicile Chairman Captain Steve Bacon alleges that ALPA has "screwed" APA (and ALPA's own members) with respect to various legislative and regulatory issues--an allegation that is flat-out wrong.
He also impugns the integrity and motivation of Mr. Rosen and ALPA's Economic and Financial Analysis Group for recouping the cost of providing their professional services to APA. Compounding the insult, LGA Domicile Chairman Captain Pete Oborski endorsed Captain Bacon's missive by forwarding it to the LGA pilots and Captain Steve Roach directed his members to it as "a good read."
"In response to this unwarranted attack, ALPA has notified me that they are withdrawing their service agreement with APA and withdrawing Mr. Rosen from assisting with negotiations. ALPA has likewise indicated that their Economic and Financial Analysis personnel will no longer participate in our negotiations. ALPA President Captain Lee Moak confirmed termination of the service agreement between APA and ALPA in an Aug. 1, 2011 letter (attached).
"So, not only is the APA-ALPA cooperative relationship now seriously damaged, but our ongoing contract negotiations have also been adversely affected. Simultaneously losing Mr. Rosen's expertise and the quantitative analysis capabilities of ALPA Economic and Financial Analysis represents a major setback.
"In addition, Mr. Rosen and ALPA have close ties to the National Mediation Board (NMB), which may interpret this latest development as an indication that the APA leadership is in disarray and unprepared to see negotiations through to their conclusion. The NMB has repeatedly expressed concern that APA's governing documents severely inhibit the APA President from exercising strong leadership. Additionally, the NMB is well aware of the unwillingness of some domicile representatives to permit our Negotiating Committee from effectively engaging with management's negotiators. Before I hired Mr. Rosen, the NMB Chairman recommended that we retain someone like him to help get our house in order. The NMB Chairman also stated that if the APA Board of Directors continued to act irrationally--and if our union continued without a singular leader empowered to make decisions--the NMB would "park" APA for an extended period. If the NMB were to take that step, we would likely be unable to get a release to self-help for years to come.
"Where does this leave us? Before we took office, it had become evident to our membership and to outside observers that APA was internally dysfunctional and unable to complete the process of negotiating and ratifying a contract. Much of this dysfunction was unfairly attributed to the previous National Officers, when in fact it was structural. Just as we began making meaningful progress at the bargaining table, Messrs. Bacon, Roach and Oborski have dealt APA a serious self-inflicted wound that may prove disastrous to our bargaining efforts. It is no coincidence that these three individuals have been actively seeking for some time to undermine your current National Officers.
"We have worked very hard to build bridges to other pilot unions across the globe. Now, due to the actions of a few APA domicile representatives, many of those bridges are on fire. Because of flaws in APA's governing structure, your National Officers unfortunately cannot prevent this kind of destructive behavior. During the past 15 years, the APA Constitution and Bylaws and Policy Manual have undergone more than 100 different revisions sponsored by various domicile representatives (often inexperienced) as reactions to particular events. Many of these changes were haphazard and poorly thought out, with the National Officers having had no vote in their adoption. This accumulation of faulty policymaking limits the National Officers' ability to govern and has produced chronic dysfunction, providing fertile ground for conflict and disunity.
"Our membership voted decisively in the most recent constitutional referendum to retain the right to directly elect their National Officers. What most of our members don't realize is there has been a concerted effort by some of the same domicile representatives responsible for the current crisis to undermine our ability to govern at all--in effect, subverting the will of the membership who elected us to represent them. The three of us have had to spend enormous time and energy dealing with unproductive internal conflict, diverting resources that should be devoted to advancing the membership's interests.
"We have concluded that the best prospect for salvaging negotiations is to appeal to you, the membership, for help. It is our intention to pursue every avenue available to us, including a possible membership referendum to amend the APA Constitution and Bylaws, to ensure greater transparency and empower our members with the final say on how our union is governed.
"When Tony, Scott and I asked you to entrust us with the responsibility of leading APA, we stressed the importance of "unity of leadership." The APA leadership must speak with one voice to be effective at the bargaining table, on Capitol Hill and in the other critical venues where we represent your interests. Right now we are not speaking with one voice and the APA Board of Directors is in disarray, which is costing us dearly. We need to act swiftly and decisively to remedy the problem.
"If, like us, you are shocked and disgusted at the damage caused by a minority of the APA Board of Directors, we suggest you contact your domicile representatives to inform them of your displeasure. We promise to keep you closely informed as this situation unfolds.
"Thank you for your patience and continued support.
American Airlines pilots lose help of larger union
By Terry Maxon/Reporter
tmaxon@dallasnews.com
7:49 PM on Tue., Aug. 2, 2011 |
The Air Line Pilots Association won't be helping the Allied Pilots Association any more in APA's contract talks with American Airlines.
It appears that ALPA was insulted by comments made out of the APA's Boston base, and ended its cooperative arrangement in which it provided a professional negotiator and research assistance to the American Airlines union.
APA president David Bates blamed the "inflammatory" remarks in an email from the Boston base chairman to his members, joined in by New York leadership, for causing the pullout.
"So, not only is the APA-ALPA cooperative relationship now seriously damaged, but our ongoing contract negotiations have also been adversely affected," Bates said in a letter to members. "Simultaneously losing Mr. [ALPA professional negotiator Seth] Rosen's expertise and the quantitative analysis capabilities of ALPA Economic and Financial Analysis represents a major setback."
Bates also said that the National Mediation Board may see the ALPA withdrawal "as an indication that the APA leadership is in disarray and unprepared to see negotiations through to their conclusion."
Keep reading for the Boston comments and the Bates letter.
From a July 26 hotline from Boston base chairman Steve Bacon that upset Bates and ALPA:
"I cannot fathom anyone expecting to have a unified voice of labor when the largest Pilot labor organization speaks for the commuters and regionals over the wishes of the majors, many of them belonging to and paying the lion's share of the dues. They have screwed us on Duty time, ATP Requirements, age 65, security screening, and drug testing, as well, and as much as their own members. "The support we 'get' for the negotiating coach (Professional Negotiator) and EF+A committee we 'get ' for a half million / year. There is no benevolence, just business. With their loss of the TWA DFR suit, ALPA is left holding the bag for 1.2 billion dollars. (pending appeal) It's a good time for the major airlines to start thinking about organizing a pilots union that represents the issues of our craft and trade, external to ALPA, and without it's 300K plus salaries.
" ALPA is presently attempting to organize Jet Blue. You can read about it at jetblueoc.org I am personally Very much in favor of Jet Blue organizing, I just question whom they are being courted by. I will not support it. I think (opinion) their pilots would be better served by becoming an independent and associating with CAPA so our common interests can be heard without having to placate the non-ancillary constituencies. Short of that, labor unity isn't going to be achieved any sooner than $3.00 Red Sox tickets."
Dave Bates' "You Should Have the Final Say" message to members:
"Last month marked one year in office for APA's current National Officers. Vice President First Officer Tony Chapman, Secretary-Treasurer First Officer Scott Shankland and I ran for office as a team committed to a common philosophy and to working together. One year later, our partnership remains stronger than ever. "I want to use this opportunity to briefly recap what we said we would do if elected--versus what we have done during the past year--and also discuss a very serious situation that has developed.
"During the campaign, we committed ourselves to being as transparent as possible about what we planned to do. So how closely have we adhered to the plan we presented?
"We said we would develop a more professional, business-like relationship with AMR management--we have.
"We said we would seek to establish a better relationship between APA and the American Airlines Flight Department--and we have.
"We said we would foster a much closer working relationship with other pilot unions in the United States and around the world--and we have.
"We said we would run APA like a business, taking great care in our handling of the membership's money--and we have. In our first year alone, we saved more than $2 million through careful cost control.
"We said we would establish productive relationships with the security analysts, institutional investors and others with a financial interest in AMR--and we have. As a result of this initiative, APA's credibility on Wall Street has increased significantly and I now regularly receive invitations to provide the pilots' point of view at various industry forums organized by financial institutions. There are many strategic reasons why these financial community relationships are important to APA's pilots.
"I said I would move my family to Texas (joining Tony and Scott) so I could be available to APA and its members 24/7--and I have.
"We said we would hire a professional negotiator--and we did. Thanks to the bridges we built with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), we were able to access the expertise of Mr. Seth Rosen, the country's most experienced pilot-side Railway Labor Act negotiator who is known and respected around the world. We also contracted with ALPA's Economic and Financial Analysis group to bolster our quantitative analysis capabilities to support our negotiating goals, a further byproduct of the closer working relationship between our two unions.
"When Tony, Scott and I campaigned last year, we identified getting the contract we all deserve as our No. 1 priority. Our assessment was that "we have little chance of negotiating a restorative contract without a professional business relationship with AA management." Despite what some naysayers assert, we have made significant progress during the past few months because of our willingness to engage management and effectively express the concerns of AA's pilots. Thanks primarily to the lines of communications we established with management, your National Officers have been included in discussions about major corporate decisions such as aircraft purchases and other future plans.
"While I share your frustration with the time it has taken, I believe we had finally set a course to accomplishing our No. 1 priority. Unfortunately, our contractual efforts have now been seriously jeopardized by the actions of a few APA domicile representatives. In an inflammatory e-mail message to the BOS Domicile last week, BOS Domicile Chairman Captain Steve Bacon alleges that ALPA has "screwed" APA (and ALPA's own members) with respect to various legislative and regulatory issues--an allegation that is flat-out wrong.
He also impugns the integrity and motivation of Mr. Rosen and ALPA's Economic and Financial Analysis Group for recouping the cost of providing their professional services to APA. Compounding the insult, LGA Domicile Chairman Captain Pete Oborski endorsed Captain Bacon's missive by forwarding it to the LGA pilots and Captain Steve Roach directed his members to it as "a good read."
"In response to this unwarranted attack, ALPA has notified me that they are withdrawing their service agreement with APA and withdrawing Mr. Rosen from assisting with negotiations. ALPA has likewise indicated that their Economic and Financial Analysis personnel will no longer participate in our negotiations. ALPA President Captain Lee Moak confirmed termination of the service agreement between APA and ALPA in an Aug. 1, 2011 letter (attached).
"So, not only is the APA-ALPA cooperative relationship now seriously damaged, but our ongoing contract negotiations have also been adversely affected. Simultaneously losing Mr. Rosen's expertise and the quantitative analysis capabilities of ALPA Economic and Financial Analysis represents a major setback.
"In addition, Mr. Rosen and ALPA have close ties to the National Mediation Board (NMB), which may interpret this latest development as an indication that the APA leadership is in disarray and unprepared to see negotiations through to their conclusion. The NMB has repeatedly expressed concern that APA's governing documents severely inhibit the APA President from exercising strong leadership. Additionally, the NMB is well aware of the unwillingness of some domicile representatives to permit our Negotiating Committee from effectively engaging with management's negotiators. Before I hired Mr. Rosen, the NMB Chairman recommended that we retain someone like him to help get our house in order. The NMB Chairman also stated that if the APA Board of Directors continued to act irrationally--and if our union continued without a singular leader empowered to make decisions--the NMB would "park" APA for an extended period. If the NMB were to take that step, we would likely be unable to get a release to self-help for years to come.
"Where does this leave us? Before we took office, it had become evident to our membership and to outside observers that APA was internally dysfunctional and unable to complete the process of negotiating and ratifying a contract. Much of this dysfunction was unfairly attributed to the previous National Officers, when in fact it was structural. Just as we began making meaningful progress at the bargaining table, Messrs. Bacon, Roach and Oborski have dealt APA a serious self-inflicted wound that may prove disastrous to our bargaining efforts. It is no coincidence that these three individuals have been actively seeking for some time to undermine your current National Officers.
"We have worked very hard to build bridges to other pilot unions across the globe. Now, due to the actions of a few APA domicile representatives, many of those bridges are on fire. Because of flaws in APA's governing structure, your National Officers unfortunately cannot prevent this kind of destructive behavior. During the past 15 years, the APA Constitution and Bylaws and Policy Manual have undergone more than 100 different revisions sponsored by various domicile representatives (often inexperienced) as reactions to particular events. Many of these changes were haphazard and poorly thought out, with the National Officers having had no vote in their adoption. This accumulation of faulty policymaking limits the National Officers' ability to govern and has produced chronic dysfunction, providing fertile ground for conflict and disunity.
"Our membership voted decisively in the most recent constitutional referendum to retain the right to directly elect their National Officers. What most of our members don't realize is there has been a concerted effort by some of the same domicile representatives responsible for the current crisis to undermine our ability to govern at all--in effect, subverting the will of the membership who elected us to represent them. The three of us have had to spend enormous time and energy dealing with unproductive internal conflict, diverting resources that should be devoted to advancing the membership's interests.
"We have concluded that the best prospect for salvaging negotiations is to appeal to you, the membership, for help. It is our intention to pursue every avenue available to us, including a possible membership referendum to amend the APA Constitution and Bylaws, to ensure greater transparency and empower our members with the final say on how our union is governed.
"When Tony, Scott and I asked you to entrust us with the responsibility of leading APA, we stressed the importance of "unity of leadership." The APA leadership must speak with one voice to be effective at the bargaining table, on Capitol Hill and in the other critical venues where we represent your interests. Right now we are not speaking with one voice and the APA Board of Directors is in disarray, which is costing us dearly. We need to act swiftly and decisively to remedy the problem.
"If, like us, you are shocked and disgusted at the damage caused by a minority of the APA Board of Directors, we suggest you contact your domicile representatives to inform them of your displeasure. We promise to keep you closely informed as this situation unfolds.
"Thank you for your patience and continued support.
You are full of it. As I said before, you just have a chip on your shoulder because of your "successful" strike. How is it that we screwed the non-union workers, as I don't remember them paying ALPA dues.
prechilill
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2002
- Messages
- 2,544
- Reaction score
- 3,406
"We don’t view any merger of AMR outside of bankruptcy as attractive to any potential acquirer. And recent history supports this view: America West purchased old US Airways (LCC) out of bankruptcy, Delta (DAL) and Northwest merged under bankruptcy protection."
http://seekingalpha.com/article/284200-amr-s-equity-still-practically-worthless-merger-will-not-save-airline?source=yahoo
http://seekingalpha.com/article/284200-amr-s-equity-still-practically-worthless-merger-will-not-save-airline?source=yahoo
If you call throwing the union out that sanctioned placing several AM West NEW hires above 17 year never furloughed East pilots a tantrum then have at it!!!!
NICDOA
NPJB
prechilill
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2002
- Messages
- 2,544
- Reaction score
- 3,406
That's what relative seniority is about. Enjoy!
cleardirect
Veteran
- Joined
- May 24, 2008
- Messages
- 6,234
- Reaction score
- 9,749
Do try and get your facts right. The union did not place the junior east pilot below AWA junior pilots. A third party neutral party did. We used arbitration. The same arbitration that would be used if we used the A/M rules.
If you are going to #### about something at least understand what you are bitching about.
BTW you have no problem with a union that would sanction placing a furloughed pilot above an active never furloughed captain?
Do you have a problem with it?
Reed Richards
Veteran
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2009
- Messages
- 1,389
- Reaction score
- 1,161
Iclubbabyseals
Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2011
- Messages
- 793
- Reaction score
- 350
Iclubbabyseals
Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2011
- Messages
- 793
- Reaction score
- 350
You are so wrong, sir.
Representing the uninformed, you practice the evil with which you accuse others.
I resent your implications, knowing one union rep in LA who was escorted off the property protecting your interests during the 92 issue. I had to defend him. Please stop your lies. You really have no idea what happened, do you? I am sorry your wound never healed. Quit trying to inflict wounds on others because you are too stupid to know what happened then because you give blanks to the morons out west who have no idea how to fight greedy bastards in tempe trash.
toganoflex
Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2008
- Messages
- 557
- Reaction score
- 381
That's BS!
You guys sold every else out for your benefit.
Complete BS. YOU ARE A LIAR.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
