US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

I mostly agree, A320 Driver. Unfortunately, the only question that matters to too many pilots when a merger looms is "What can I get out of this".

Jim

Exactly... You don't have to be a student of human nature to see this coming. Typically, your first instinct is "what's in it for me?" Had the Merger Committee been left alone to do their job, I don't think we would be in this mess and although there is no perfect solution, one close to the middle will usually suffice.

Disclaimer...just my opinion.

Driver B)

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

QUOTE (aquagreen73s @ Sep 4 2009, 08:03 PM)

Document 613 and two exhibits along with an affidavit filed today by Plaintiffs. $1.8 million in atty's fees.

Beautiful. This is going to get quite expensive for the East going forward. 2010 will be known as the Year of Assessments.
Well, with 2010 coming to an end I guess I missed my notice! MM!

 

[nycbusdriver]

"Not necessarily be" and "does not automatically" constitute a DFR is true. What the USAPA update fails to mention is the rest of the sentence from the 9th discussion of it's reasoning. That would be the (paraphrasing) "does not do the harm that the West fears". What does the West fear? That USAPA's solution may not protect their seniority as much as the Nic award So what the sentence from the 9th says is that as long as USAPA finds a solution that protects West seniority as much as the Nic award, there would be no DFR.

The obvious question, or elephant in the room, becomes what is the likelihood that USAPA will propose a non-Nic solution that gives the West the same protections as the Nic? So far it looks like that likelihood is nil - USAPA seems to be hoping that it's lopsided C&R's can somehow convince a jury that USAPA's solution is fair - a hope that's been shot down by one jury already.

Jim

The problem with your logic is that you and the west pilots seem to feel that the Nicolau abomination is somehow the "gold standard" to which USAPA must strive in any list negotiated with the company. It is not. It really doesn't matter what a judge or jury decides if they feel USAPA has not given the west the same windfall which Nicolau gave them.

There is enough higher court precedent supporting DOH with C&Rs that if the desert district court and the jury of "peers" OBVIOUSLY chosen from the west pilots' neighbors again rules against USAPA in a DFR, it will be appealed where this time the 9th will then have to rule on criteria other than ripeness.

If whatever judge again abuses his/her power to suppress the hearing of higher court precedent and RLA law during the trial, there will again be enough ammunition to get the 9th to hear the case.

There is clearly no legal necessity for USAPA to meet any perceived "standard" placed in front of them by the Nicolau. The 9th will likely make it perfectly clear next time that USAPA is free to negotiate within the constraints of the RLA and court precedent. That is exactly what USAPA intends to do, IMHO. The Nicolau does not exist in the minds of the USAPA negotiators. And that's how it should be.

 

[AWA320]

QUOTE (aquagreen73s @ Sep 4 2009, 08:03 PM)

Document 613 and two exhibits along with an affidavit filed today by Plaintiffs. $1.8 million in atty's fees.

Beautiful. This is going to get quite expensive for the East going forward. 2010 will be known as the Year of Assessments.
Well, with 2010 coming to an end I guess I missed my notice! MM!

You appear overly concerned about how much AOL has spent when your real concern should be how much you've given seham. Frankly he has produced nothing. Lost the original DFR that protects rights going fwd, lost twice on Rico and only given what amounts to a stay from the 9th circuit. He continues to embarrass himself with these rule 11 motions that keep getting tossed. I love watch the east grasp at each and ever tiny thing then try and claim a major victory. News flash, YOU"RE REALLY LOSING both battle and war...

AWA320

 

[Bear96]

The problem with your logic is that you and the west pilots seem to feel that the Nicolau abomination is somehow the "gold standard" to which USAPA must strive in any list negotiated with the company.

I am not BB or a West pilot, but even I can see the flaws in the East's approach.

I don't know if I would call Nic the "gold standard." However, under arbitration law, it IS effectively the list the two sides agreed to, before the East changed its mind.

There is enough higher court precedent supporting DOH with C&Rs[.]

I don't think there is precedent saying the parties must go DOH when the governing policy in effect is explicitly NOT DOH. At least not without some other bizarre issue at play which would not be applicable here.

There is clearly no legal necessity for USAPA to meet any perceived "standard" placed in front of them by the Nicolau. The 9th will likely make it perfectly clear next time that USAPA is free to negotiate within the constraints of the RLA and court precedent.

You really think the legal system will completely ignore the arbitration award, don't you.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I am not BB or a West pilot, but even I can see the flaws in the East's approach.

I don't know if I would call Nic the "gold standard." However, under arbitration law, it IS effectively the list the two sides agreed to, before the East changed its mind.


I don't think there is precedent saying the parties must go DOH when the governing policy in effect is explicitly NOT DOH. At least not without some other bizarre issue at play which would not be applicable here.


You really think the legal system will completely ignore the arbitration award, don't you.

I think the RLA, which gives unions very broad powers to negotiate (supported by the courts up-to-and-including the Supreme Court), will definitely trump arbitration law. In fact, I think arbitration "law" will be found to be inapplicable here since, as the 9th has already implied, the arbitration was a process from a CBA which is no longer on the property. Sometimes laws are in conflict. I doubt the RLA will take a back seat to an internal ALPA process.

I really do think the legal system will ignore the arbitration award. It doesn't rise to the importance of maintaining the integrity of the RLA and the decades of court precedent giving USAPA a wide latitude here.

 

[Code Name V]

You appear overly concerned about how much AOL has spent when your real concern should be how much you've given seham. Frankly he has produced nothing. Lost the original DFR that protects rights going fwd, lost twice on Rico and only given what amounts to a stay from the 9th circuit. He continues to embarrass himself with these rule 11 motions that keep getting tossed. I love watch the east grasp at each and ever tiny thing then try and claim a major victory. News flash, YOU"RE REALLY LOSING both battle and war...

AWA320

What planet do you live on and is there any intelligent life there?

V

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You appear overly concerned about how much AOL has spent when your real concern should be how much you've given seham. Frankly he has produced nothing. Lost the original DFR that protects rights going fwd, lost twice on Rico and only given what amounts to a stay from the 9th circuit. He continues to embarrass himself with these rule 11 motions that keep getting tossed. I love watch the east grasp at each and ever tiny thing then try and claim a major victory. News flash, YOU"RE REALLY LOSING both battle and war...

AWA320

And you've lost your MIND.

 

[crazystnic]

Back to the Navajos and Merlins???

Think again...

Driver <_<


*********************************8

yeah back to the whole damn list.. I'm not empire but those guys got screwed and we should of fixed it. As well as the shuttle..

I know you are going to keep hearing the what if's... but there is no what if's..
the Empire guys are all stuckas Junio CAPT's... and they will retire like that... Shouldn't be....

should of just been DOH..

 

[Bear96]

I think the RLA, which gives unions very broad powers to negotiate (supported by the courts up-to-and-including the Supreme Court), will definitely trump arbitration law. In fact, I think arbitration "law" will be found to be inapplicable here since, as the 9th has already implied, the arbitration was a process from a CBA which is no longer on the property. Sometimes laws are in conflict. I doubt the RLA will take a back seat to an internal ALPA process.

The RLA is all about having parties work things out between themselves through alternative dispute resolution procedures such as arbitration and mediation without court involvement.

You seem to imply there is some sort of conflict between the RLA and arbitration law here. There isn't. (Or if there is, please explain.) Even of there were, courts generally do what they can to interpret apparently conflicting laws to be in harmony with other as much as possible. They do not choose one and throw out the other if at all possible.

A union has broad powers to negotiate, yes. But not unlimited powers. And the RLA does not require that integrations be done by seniority.

Also, consider laws such as McCaskill-Bond. It has amused me over the years how some East supporters have pointed to that law as proof of how they are right, even though it is essentially a different version the same as that evil and unjust ALPA merger policy. In fact, it was enacted to protect a minority group (there, TW) from tyranny of the majority (AA) during a seniority intergration process (sound familiar?), and limits a union's "broad powers to negotiate." Is it therefore somehow in conflict with the RLA? Does one trump the other?

In any case, I am not really even sure how the RLA is implicated. The RLA addresses disputes between carriers and unions, not inter- or intra-union disputes, which is the underlying issue here. USAirways does not really care what seniority list ends up being used. The only real "negotiating" about seniority that will be going on is between East and West pilots, not between USAPA and USAirways - an situation that is not really addressed by the RLA.

I really do think the legal system will ignore the arbitration award.

You might want to read the Federal Arbitration Act or google the Steelworkers Trilogy.

It doesn't rise to the importance of maintaining the integrity of the RLA and the decades of court precedent giving USAPA a wide latitude here.

How will the integrity of the RLA be compromised if (when) Nic is to be the ultimate list?

 

[sumadarson]

The RLA is all about having parties work things out between themselves through alternative dispute resolution procedures such as arbitration and mediation without court involvement.

You seem to imply there is some sort of conflict between the RLA and arbitration law here. There isn't. (Or if there is, please explain.) Even of there were, courts generally do what they can to interpret apparently conflicting laws to be in harmony with other as much as possible. They do not choose one and throw out the other if at all possible.

A union has broad powers to negotiate, yes. But not unlimited powers. And the RLA does not require that integrations be done by seniority.

Also, consider laws such as McCaskill-Bond. It has amused me over the years how some East supporters have pointed to that law as proof of how they are right, even though it is essentially a different version the same as that evil and unjust ALPA merger policy. In fact, it was enacted to protect a minority group (there, TW) from tyranny of the majority (AA) during a seniority intergration process (sound familiar?), and limits a union's "broad powers to negotiate." Is it therefore somehow in conflict with the RLA? Does one trump the other?

In any case, I am not really even sure how the RLA is implicated. The RLA addresses disputes between carriers and unions, not inter- or intra-union disputes, which is the underlying issue here. USAirways does not really care what seniority list ends up being used. The only real "negotiating" about seniority that will be going on is between East and West pilots, not between USAPA and USAirways - an situation that is not really addressed by the RLA.



You might want to read the Federal Arbitration Act or google the Steelworkers Trilogy.



How will the integrity of the RLA be compromised if (when) Nic is to be the ultimate list?

In your years as an F/A for UAL you obviously were not involved in anything that has to do with labor laws. This situation is much more complicated. Federal Arbitration act has nothing to do with an in house, internal union procedure with many variables. You are posting misinformation.

 

[cleardirect]

The problem with your logic is that you and the west pilots seem to feel that the Nicolau abomination is somehow the "gold standard" to which USAPA must strive in any list negotiated with the company. It is not. It really doesn't matter what a judge or jury decides if they feel USAPA has not given the west the same windfall which Nicolau gave them.

There is enough higher court precedent supporting DOH with C&Rs that if the desert district court and the jury of "peers" OBVIOUSLY chosen from the west pilots' neighbors again rules against USAPA in a DFR, it will be appealed where this time the 9th will then have to rule on criteria other than ripeness.

If whatever judge again abuses his/her power to suppress the hearing of higher court precedent and RLA law during the trial, there will again be enough ammunition to get the 9th to hear the case.

There is clearly no legal necessity for USAPA to meet any perceived "standard" placed in front of them by the Nicolau. The 9th will likely make it perfectly clear next time that USAPA is free to negotiate within the constraints of the RLA and court precedent. That is exactly what USAPA intends to do, IMHO. The Nicolau does not exist in the minds of the USAPA negotiators. And that's how it should be.

First of all I don't think there exists a lot of things in the usapa negotiators minds. Like intelligence or rational thought.

Let's play imagination for a minute. Let's assume that what you hope to be true is true. That after some 2-3 more years of you guys being on LOA 93 wages the court finally agrees to throw out arbitration and allows the majority to overrun the minority and allows usapa to invent their own list.

What makes you think that the company is going to go along with usapa? What makes you think that the company is going to throw the west under the bus? What makes you think that the company will accept an increase in cost and restriction on their ability to operate this airline? What makes you think that usapa will be able to survive 2-3-4 more years when they will be unable to get anyone a pay raise or better working conditions? The company is under no obligation to accept any usapa seniority proposal are they? Just like the company is not under any obligation to accept line bidding or pay rates. or crew meals.

The height of irony would be that you east guys kicked and screamed and cried for years. Finally got the chance to negotiate seniority and were unable to get DOH and ended up with the Nicolau anyway. Just delaying the end several years.

But there is justice in the world and we will end up with the Nicolau just a lot later than we should have. But you guys sit back and wait. If you read the grievance update you will know that snap backs are not coming. Was it me or was that update overly nasty and aggressive with no new information. Seemed a bit touchy. Could it be that usapa is feeling extreme pressure from the MAJORITY of east pilots demanding a pay raise?

 

[CallawayGolf]

And you've lost your MIND.

This coming from the poster who keeps repeating the same mantra over and over "the NIC is dead" despite the fact that Management has claimed in federal court that the NIC is the only list they have accepted and have further asked for a federal DJ to resolve the question as to which list can legally be used. Can you cite anyone outside of the East posters on this board who have made any proclamation concerning the demise of the NIC? If not you might want to check your own sanity before you go around accusing others of the same. Every time you proclaim “the NIC is dead”, all I hear is – “I can’t handle the truth so I’ll just make stuff up instead”.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

This coming from the poster who keeps repeating the same mantra over and over "the NIC is dead" despite the fact that Management has claimed in federal court that the NIC is the only list they have accepted and have further asked for a federal DJ to resolve the question as to which list can legally be used. Can you cite anyone outside of the East posters on this board who have made any proclamation concerning the demise of the NIC? If not you might want to check your own sanity before you go around accusing others of the same. Every time you proclaim “the NIC is dead”, all I hear is – “I can’t handle the truth so I’ll just make stuff up instead”.

You and your buds are delusional. There is absolutely ZERO chance that the Nic will be the list. That's right, ZERO.

The Nic is DEAD!

ALPA SUX!

Go USAPA! Best money EVER spent!

 

[AWE Dog]

Also, consider laws such as McCaskill-Bond. It has amused me over the years how some East supporters have pointed to that law as proof of how they are right, even though it is essentially a different version the same as that evil and unjust ALPA merger policy. In fact, it was enacted to protect a minority group (there, TW) from tyranny of the majority (AA) during a seniority intergration process (sound familiar?), and limits a union's "broad powers to negotiate." Is it therefore somehow in conflict with the RLA? Does one trump the other?

One Big differance here, Do you think there would even be a McCaskill-Bond law if TW was merged DOH?