US Pilots Labor Discussion

[flyinawa]

Change is inevitable - except from a vending machine! MM BTW! People don't resist change. They resist being changed!"

I guess you're correct, change IS inevitable. I'm looking forward to the end of USAPA as well.


"Except from a vending machine." MM HILARIOUS!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I guess you're correct, change IS inevitable. I'm looking forward to the end of USAPA as well.


"Except from a vending machine." MM HILARIOUS!
[/quot Work is hard. Distractions are plentiful. And time is short. BTW You will be looking a very long time! MM!

 

[SparrowHawk]

WOW! the conversation here is so intellectually stimulating I think I'll go watch the bumper rust on my Audi :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

[Res Judicata]

That's all that matters, isn't it.

The rest of the world can be in a Depression as long as you personally are fine.

Just because he's fine in a single wide trailer 20miles from that mud pit Lake Norman with his 3rd grade diploma hanging precariously on the particle board wall doesn't mean anything. Most of us earned more out of this career than the consistently incoherent Jimmy "MM!!" spec. Ed.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Just because he's fine in a single wide trailer 20miles from that mud pit Lake Norman with his 3rd grade diploma hanging precariously on the particle board wall doesn't mean anything. Most of us earned more out of this career than the consistently incoherent Jimmy "MM!!" spec. Ed.

Well if you earned it you would have it, funny you say that, guess you earned that leap frog, or inherit it from guys that ACTUALLY WORKED AND ATTAINED IT! KMA ! MM! BTW the view is great!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

AMERICA WEST," WE EARNED IT" , how pathetic!

 

[cleardirect]

Just got back from Europe, sorry for the delay.

When the NIC came out, comparing my seniority, there was a difference of 1800 numbers between the NIC and DOH lists. I do not have a copy of the NIC anymore due to a melt down with my last computer a couple of years ago. I don't know what you're looking at, but you are taking a guess. I was hired Nov/86, if that will help. I have never been furloughed. I could be off, but that is the way I recall it. If you can attach a copy of the NIC, I would like to take another look at it. You might be able to show me differently.

breeze

Got it. November 1986. There were 28 pilot hired in that class. Let’s call you RD. Number 2408 on a stand alone list. Using the DOH hire list you would be number 2519 losing a career ending 111 spots. With the Nicolau you go from number 2408 to spot 3527. Losing 1119 not your reported 1800 positions. That means you would have all of the AWA captains and only 100 west FO’s senior to you. You were an F/O at the time of the merger were you not?

Looking at the west pilot just senior to RD on the Nicolau list. D. Ransick was 1320 on the AWA list (about 300 from upgrade) placed 3525 meaning he lost 2205 on the Nicolau list. But under DOH he went from 1320 to 6036 losing 4716 positions, 1103 which were furloughed at the time. Placing all of the east captains, all of the east active F/O’s and 1103 furloughed pilots senior to him. This is a guy that had 533 west pilot junior to him stand alone now becomes furlough fodder for east furloughed pilots.

So you have the numbers. Who gets hurt more an east pilot losing 1119 spots using the Nicolau or a west pilot losing 4716 spots using DOH?

Quite clearly a west pilot using DOH.

 

[luvn737s]

So based on the No Bump No Flush are you saying under Nic that Breeze would be about 300 from upgrade (or less)? Under Nic how far from upgrade is Ransick? And does Breeze represent close to the bottom of the active pilot list, thus the "worst" of the effects of the Nic list?

 

[cleardirect]

So based on the No Bump No Flush are you saying under Nic that Breeze would be about 300 from upgrade (or less)? Under Nic how far from upgrade is Ransick? And does Breeze represent close to the bottom of the active pilot list, thus the "worst" of the effects of the Nic list?

I did not do the hard math on the difference in positions.

Stand alone AWA Ransick is 233 from upgrade. On the Nicolau Ransick is 554 from upgrade. 321 east pilots senior to him on Nicolau between his junior captain
Stand alone east RD is 317 from Schiller the junior captain that I found. Nicolau list 524 from Schiller. 207 west pilot senior to him on the Nicolau between his junior captain.

Nicolau gave the east 2/3 of the upgrades. So of the 524 positions on the Nicolau list 349 go to the east and 175 go to the west. So you see under the Nicolau east pilots actually gain 32 west captain upgrades because of the 2/3 ratio.

Stand alone RD had 768 active junior pilot below him. 75.8% on his list 73.9% on the Nicolau list (active pilots). Gaining 1.9%
Ransick had 533 pilots below him. 71.2% on his list 73.9% on the Nicolau list Losing 2.7%

DOH list.

RD goes from being 317 from upgrade on his list. DOH gives him about 800 west captain junior to him.
Ransick goes from being 233 from upgrade to having 233 west f/o's, 1085 east active f/o's plus 1103 east furloughed f/o's in front of him. Total from upgrade before the merger 233 total after the merger by DOH 2421. How does DOH preserve his pre-merger expectations? How does going from having 317 to upgrade pre merger to having 800 west captains below RD preserve his pre-merger expectations?

Those are the hard number using two very real people. The premise started out that mrbreese was losing 1800 spots using the Nicolau. Proven false and demonstrated that the Nicolau is a slight disadvantage for the west and and career ending using DOH where Nicolau is a slight improvement and a massive gain under DOH.

This is comparing active pilot to active pilot. Granted furloughed pilots are at the bottom. But that is the way most mergers treat furloughed pilots. They were excess. Not needed to run the operation. Sorry. But the rest of us have paid a huge price because the furloughed pilots don't like the cards they were dealt.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I did not do the hard math on the difference in positions.

Stand alone AWA Ransick is 233 from upgrade. On the Nicolau Ransick is 554 from upgrade. 321 east pilots senior to him on Nicolau between his junior captain
Stand alone east RD is 317 from Schiller the junior captain that I found. Nicolau list 524 from Schiller. 207 west pilot senior to him on the Nicolau between his junior captain.

Nicolau gave the east 2/3 of the upgrades. So of the 524 positions on the Nicolau list 349 go to the east and 175 go to the west. So you see under the Nicolau east pilots actually gain 32 west captain upgrades because of the 2/3 ratio.

Stand alone RD had 768 active junior pilot below him. 75.8% on his list 73.9% on the Nicolau list (active pilots). Gaining 1.9%
Ransick had 533 pilots below him. 71.2% on his list 73.9% on the Nicolau list Losing 2.7%

DOH list.

RD goes from being 317 from upgrade on his list. DOH gives him about 800 west captain junior to him.
Ransick goes from being 233 from upgrade to having 233 west f/o's, 1085 east active f/o's plus 1103 east furloughed f/o's in front of him. Total from upgrade before the merger 233 total after the merger by DOH 2421. How does DOH preserve his pre-merger expectations? How does going from having 317 to upgrade pre merger to having 800 west captains below RD preserve his pre-merger expectations?

Those are the hard number using two very real people. The premise started out that mrbreese was losing 1800 spots using the Nicolau. Proven false and demonstrated that the Nicolau is a slight disadvantage for the west and and career ending using DOH where Nicolau is a slight improvement and a massive gain under DOH.

This is comparing active pilot to active pilot. Granted furloughed pilots are at the bottom. But that is the way most mergers treat furloughed pilots. They were excess. Not needed to run the operation. Sorry. But the rest of us have paid a huge price because the furloughed pilots don't like the cards they were dealt.

LMFAO Why don't you compare active base to say closed base! Your hubs are FLUBS, they would be all CLOSED if not for the T/A! Dream all you want, NIC AINT GOING TO HAPPEN!

 

[luvn737s]

So what could be argued as "Worst case scenario" the biggest detriment to upgrade for the most disadvantaged pilot under Nicolau is what, 207 pilots? During a time of massive attrition due to age 65 kicking in, what do you think that 207 (or less based on the occasional buddy bid with the Grim Reaper) translates into in months? 6 months? 12 on the outside? Are we really going through all these histrionics over a 12 month delay for the most disadvantaged east pilot?

The USAPA supporters should know what they are willing to sacrifice their jobs over.

 

[cleardirect]

So what could be argued as "Worst case scenario" the biggest detriment to upgrade for the most disadvantaged pilot under Nicolau is what, 207 pilots? During a time of massive attrition due to age 65 kicking in, what do you think that 207 (or less based on the occasional buddy bid with the Grim Reaper) translates into in months? 6 months? 12 on the outside? Are we really going through all these histrionics over a 12 month delay for the most disadvantaged east pilot?

The USAPA supporters should know what they are willing to sacrifice their jobs over.

Yes!. Even the east number cruncher said that the most any east pilot loses is 2 years. That is what the east guy said. Parker at the last crew news said that we are at least 2.5 years from settling seniority in courts. Attrition is 1.5 years away. A new contract as of now is many years away.

So yes 200 east pilots are the difference that we are fighting over. Way to go east pilot, you guys keep fighting denying the Nicolau. My guess when this all ends and Nicolau is the list you will not be able to find anyone that voted for usapa or ever wore a yellow lanyard. I think we should start taking pictures in the terminal of yellowneckers. That way they cannot deny they were supporters of Cleary.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Good idea CLEAR, you should get right on it! MM!

 

[mrbreeze]

Breeze;
You can look at, save and print any of our arbitration documents and all legal documents on: www.cactuspilot.com

Public site, no pass word needed.

K...thx

 

[nycbusdriver]

Here we go again, this just in from Reuters.



So now please enlighten me as to exactly how this could happen as often as it does? I'm especially interested in the Doug Parker Apologista's on this.

Also is there any way a pilot or member of the flight crew do do such a thing in the air? Since according the Apologista's it's all just a job action?

Parker's lawyers have a boatload of statistical history to show the judge in Charlotte. I wonder if the statistical history includes the trend in smoke/fume incidents on US Airways aircraft?

My guess is that USAPA will fill that void to prove the point that the safety campaign is a much needed effort which is being denied, resisted and constrained by the company at even turn.

My guess is there will be no need for a full page ad in USA Today, assuming the hearing is in open court. The Charlotte Observer will have it on the front page the next day, and it will possibly be picked up by national media shortly thereafter.