US Pilots Labor Discussion

[jetjok1]

Tell that to the empire pilots you putz

Hey Prechilill........Putz is my girlfriends nickname!!!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

More of a sports reference but I can run with the financial thing too.

So you DENNIS are quite a bit alike! Why does that not surprise us! http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/

 

[BoeingBoy]

Having said that......I shouldn't have lost 800 numbers to a Westie who was hired 2 days before me.

And you didn't lose 800 numbers to a westie who was hired 2 days before you. You lost 800 numbers because 800 westies were senior to you - the last of whom was hired only two days earlier than you. It's somewhat strange that the easties long for DOH yet your position sounds like it came from DOH - westies that are above you on the Nic were hired before you.

Jim

 

[NoYellowNeck]

G-damn that was an awesome post.

 

[NoYellowNeck]

So you DENNIS are quite a bit alike! Why does that not surprise us! http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/

Come on Claxon, I don't care about those Bulls.

I only care about your SF Bulls!!!!!

 

[Phoenix]

...

Hey, did you hear AA purchased 1000 new aircraft at the Paris Air Show? I heard Mr. Parker, in his normal drunken stupor and in response, ordered 37,000 new lanyards. So there!

Tit for tat, and all that.

ROFLMAO.

 

[mrbreeze]

,

"Rightful line without waiting any longer than they would have." OK! But you want the west to wait longer than we should have.

Do the math! The east is 2/3 of the F/O's the west is 1/3. Read the Nicolau award. He slotted the east and west in 2/3, 1/3. So the east is getting the upgrades that you are entitled to and the west is getting the upgrades that we are entitled to.

If you want to talk about a windfall take a look at DOH. As I pointed out. Little Greggy Harrington wants to go from being 1000 furloughed to being within 100 of our west captain.

No way, no how, not going to happen. You should have considered C&R when you had a chance not after.

BTW I thought all of you guys on here were captains. Why is the discussion always about upgrade and you not getting them? Could it be that you guys have misrepresented yourselves and you are really the AFO club. No an east pilots fibbing could never happen.

Heard a saying that the east MEC used during the integration. "If you ain't cheatin' and lying, you ain't tryin'" Pretty much sums up the east pilot attitude.

Clear,

Your math may be accurate, but the problem is not always mathmatical.

If you look at years of service and the time left before retirement, that is where the equation gets lopsided. Let's say an East FO is 100 numbers from recovering his Cpt seat, but only has 5 yrs left before retirement.

On the other hand, a West FO is 35 yrs old and is, say 500 numbers from Cpt.

If we end up with DOH, the East FO has a change to fly his last 3-4 yrs in the lft seat and recover a small portion of the wages he lost during his downgrade. The West FO has to wait, say, 5-6 yrs to upgrade, but has about another 25 yrs of Cpt wages to accumulate.

However, if we end up with the NIC, the East FO could very likely retire in the same position he is in, and not recover anything. The West FO moves up much more quickly and due to attrition, upgrades in 3 yrs instead of 5-6.......BUT STILL HAS 28 yrs of Cpt wages ahead of him.

I believe that a huge elephant in the room that doesn't come into play with numbers is the fact that you guys will own this airline in another 6-8 yrs. Not only that, there are C&Rs to protect your positions in PHX. All we want is to have a chance to regain what we lost when the company parked 101 jets, furloughing 1958 pilots via Force Majure after 9/11, (which, btw, we invested $9 billion in wages to maintain our careers). Then you guys can have it all, we don't care and hope it just gets better for you as time moves on. We are not secretly making plans to bid into PHX.....there is enough adversity to dissuade that.

breeze

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Come on Claxon, I don't care about those Bulls.

I only care about your SF Bulls!!!!!

I know your the x-box generation! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Silf274K3Kw

 

[luvn737s]

,

Clear,

If you look at years of service and the time left before retirement, that is where the equation gets lopsided. Let's say an East FO is 100 numbers from recovering his Cpt seat, but only has 5 yrs left before retirement.

On the other hand, a West FO is 35 yrs old and is, say 500 numbers from Cpt.

If we end up with DOH, the East FO has a change to fly his last 3-4 yrs in the lft seat and recover a small portion of the wages he lost during his downgrade. The West FO has to wait, say, 5-6 yrs to upgrade, but has about another 25 yrs of Cpt wages to accumulate.

However, if we end up with the NIC, the East FO could very likely retire in the same position he is in, and not recover anything. The West FO moves up much more quickly and due to attrition, upgrades in 3 yrs instead of 5-6.......BUT STILL HAS 28 yrs of Cpt wages ahead of him.

Oh, so what you really want is for the east F/O to have been hired at a younger age than he was. Is that all? You should have said so. Now at least we know what we're fighting over.

 

[mrbreeze]

Oh, so what you really want is for the east F/O to have been hired at a younger age than he was. Is that all? You should have said so. Now at least we know what we're fighting over.

That is absolutely the dumbest spin I have ever seen.

Like you, we were all hired in our late 20's/early 30's......we have just PUT MORE TIME IN ON THE JOB.

 

[mrbreeze]

bedtime in Europe, guys

later

 

[NoYellowNeck]

Later boo.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If you look at years of service and the time left before retirement, that is where the equation gets lopsided.

This is your flaw. You're changing the metric from the beginning by adding "time left" and then back into an answer. I'll comment further below, but understand that Nicolau did take time left into consideration.

Let's say an East FO is 100 numbers from recovering his Cpt seat, but only has 5 yrs left before retirement.

Then his opportunity to upgrade should not be changed (ideally) or changed the least (realistically) in the merger. Look at the ratios. Nicolau gave you the proportion of upgrades you brought to the merger.

On the other hand, a West FO is 35 yrs old and is, say 500 numbers from Cpt.

Hardly anyone in the West pilot group, but let's continue anyway:

If we end up with DOH, the East FO has a change to fly his last 3-4 yrs in the lft seat and recover a small portion of the wages he lost during his downgrade. The West FO has to wait, say, 5-6 yrs to upgrade, but has about another 25 yrs of Cpt wages to accumulate.

(1) the downgrade occurred at the previous airline.
(2) with DOH, he now upgrades sooner than he would have under separate ops (assuming both airlines were static and only upgrading on attrition). Why? Because he just took the West and East upgrade. Can you honestly say that is fair? This is an admission that the answer to my question of whether it's fair, and the answer is no, but the harm can be amortized over 25 years instead of 30.

However, if we end up with the NIC, the East FO could very likely retire in the same position he is in, and not recover anything.

The numbers say otherwise. The East got 2/3 of the upgrades on the Nicolau. Any more or less than that is simply not fair.

The West FO moves up much more quickly and due to attrition, upgrades in 3 yrs instead of 5-6.......BUT STILL HAS 28 yrs of Cpt wages ahead of him.

Not true. Not all F/Os have 28 years left. Few do. Second, you're asking for the West to bypass an upgrade for an older East pilot. Ok. What do you offer in return? Nothing.

I believe that a huge elephant in the room that doesn't come into play with numbers is the fact that you guys will own this airline in another 6-8 yrs.

You're inflating the East attrition again. At best 500 East pilots will retire in the next five years and over a third of them will not equate to upgrades. OTOH, the West will retire about 150 and just about every retirement will equate to a captain upgrade.

Even if it were true that the West was going to "own" the airline, after the way we've been treated, some of the younger East pilots had better hope that the West treats them better than the East has treated us.

Not only that, there are C&Rs to protect your positions in PHX. All we want is to have a chance to regain what we lost when the company parked 101 jets, furloughing 1958 pilots via Force Majure after 9/11, (which, btw, we invested $9 billion in wages to maintain our careers).

Nicolau had C&Rs. Plus, what you want to get back is on the backs of the West pilots who had nothing to do with the parking of 101 jets, LOA93, and a third of your pilots hitting the streets.

Then you guys can have it all, we don't care and hope it just gets better for you as time moves on.

But the plan in the meantime is to wreck the company under the ruse of safety.

We are not secretly making plans to bid into PHX.....there is enough adversity to dissuade that.

And vice versa. You could have had a significant pay raise four years ago and very few of the West pilots would have migrated East. Water under the bridge now. Today it's all or nothing and the reason it's that way is not because of the West choosing to stand up for themselves. No. It's USAPA's absolute stupidity to eliminate the West as a separate bargaining entity and with that went any sort of middle ground. Now Cleary is waging war against the company which is a battle he will surely lose. USAPA will be castrated and this pilot group will do nothing other than amble along in a debilitated state, unable to muster any kind of unity.

 

[cactusboy53]

FAA May Ground America West

P H O E N I X, Aug. 26
America West planes will be grounded unless the airline proves within a week that it has completed maintenance on a quarter of its fleet, federal regulators said Friday......overhauls conducted by outside vendors.

BORING! Once again an article that is OVER ONE DECADE OLD. Luv, why don't you find something on this subject that is within the past 12 months (no fair using USAPA media shill Ted Reed).

So has the mighty (former) US Air ever been threatened by the FAA? Has the mighty (former) US Air had maintenance troubles?

Just more argument, delay, & hyperbole to evade a final and binding seniority arbitration. It may take a few more years, but the Nicolau seniority list will be the only seniority list used when we finally combine (it is the list that Mr. Parker has said he has accepted). You have bought nothing but 4 years of delay, and continued sub-standard wages & work rules. Enjoy those upgrades....they are costing you a bunch.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not only that, there are C&Rs to protect your positions in PHX.

I've got some swampland for sale if you believe that....

All USAPA's C&R's do is cause the backward progression of the west pilots to take longer than a system flush.

Jim