US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

Actually luvn, the gate cannot put people on or take people off at their discretion.

The agent comes to the airplane and "asks" if it is okay to board for a reason. The crew determines if it is okay to board, end of story.

No, I have arrived at quite a few A/C with F/A's and pax on board and ready to go. No body sent me a text asking my permission. If the aircraft is on a mechanical delay, I ask the tech to notify the folks who notify the gate. I know how to make the "machine" work and don't gum it up unnecessarily by getting into a heated argument to protect my turf.

In other words, I don't use a screwdriver as a hammer.

I give everyone involved as much info as I have so that they can make the decisions they are willing to live with. Once everyone has the same info, leaders can lead effectively.

At least that's what the fortune cookie told me!

 

[BoeingBoy]

If the company wins this injunction, which is a good chance, I figure you will get to see it up close and personal since the injunction will apply to all the pilots east and west and the company will have free reign to do what they like.

Not really. The company can never force a pilot to fly a plane that the captain feels is unsafe - the captain can always just say "No" and leave. Likewise, no Judge can force a pilot to fly a plane that pilot feels is unsafe.

If you get a chance, look over the AMR v APA case that resulted from the sickout, especially the appeal of the damages for the union's failure to adhere to the TRO the District Court Judge issued.

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

USAPA ENCOURAGED NOTHING, THE DATA BREACH IN WHICH OUR (IDENTITIES)TELEPHONE NUMBERS WERE GIVEN TO AOL AND USED AGAINST USAPA! simple! FRAMED!

Did AOL break into USAPA headquarters and use their postage meter to mail work slow down materials too?

However, even if you were correct, USAPA still has the legal responsibility to maintain the status quo for all pilots - east and west. So USAPA is either the instigator of the illegal conduct or they have proven to be incompetent/impotent to stop the campaign which is occurring on their watch. The court will rule based on the law, not the fact that USAPA has alienated and disenfranchised a group of pilots whom they were elected to represent. Ether way USAPA is in deep trouble unless this judge takes a holiday from looking at the facts just like the clerks for Tashima and Graber did back in SF.

 

[mrbreeze]

I just sat through the earthquake at the Philly airport. The terminal was evacuated for about an hour, but things are getting back to normal now.

Those pesky pilots...what will they think of next to slow things down! B)

breeze

 

[BoeingBoy]

USAPA ENCOURAGED NOTHING

Aside from the "FRAMED" which is nothing but another of your judge, jury, and executioner remarks, USAPA doesn't have to have started, led, encouraged, whatever any illegal job action to be guilty. As I advised another eastie, familiarize yourself with the AMR v APA damages appeal. There the Judge issued a TRO, the union officers immediately put out code-a-phone messages, emails, crew room bulleting, web site announcements reciting the TRO, telling pilots to knock it off, etc and still the appeals court upheld the damages because the union "didn't do enough to stop the sick calls." Remember, it's not the union that is on trial for the behavior of the pilots. The union is on trial because they're the representative of the pilots and have an obligation to take ALL steps to bring the illegal actions of members under control after being notified of an illegal job action.

Now compare the steps APA's officers took with Cleary's tepid response to the suit...

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

I just sat through the earthquake at the Philly airport. The terminal was evacuated for about an hour, but things are getting back to normal now.

Hey, I was wondering if anyone else felt it. About 15 seconds of feeling like someone was shaking the house here in the GSO area. Last I checked magnitude 5.9 centered between Richmond and Charlottesville VA.

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

... FRAMED!

Despite their best efforts, east pilots are always the victim and never the victor. If you start accepting responsibility for your actions you are far more likely to have a successful outcome - assuming you make a conscious effort to keep your conduct within the boundaries of the law of course.

 

[A320 Driver]

As I said above, nothing new. I had an agent board an aircraft in my absence back in the 90's after telling them not to and why (IAM in negotiations and daily check was going to take a lot longer than normal - the only indication of mechanic action when I told the agent was a toolbox sitting under the plane). I came back, found the passengers boarding, and asked the agent why only to learn that the ramp tower guy "in charge" of my flight had ordered the plane boarded. So I called him and was told point blank that my job was to fly the airplane and nothing else. So I told him that when the plane was on the runway ready for takeoff to call me and I'd come out to fly it, hung up, and immediately called the CP. When I stopped by the CP's office after the trip, I was informed that the ramp tower guy was relieved of duty immediately and wouldn't be working there any more.

If there's a problem, you have the senior VP of flight ops phone number and the FAR's - use them if necessary to resolve the problem since that's what they're there for.

Jim

Those were the days! Unfortunately things are not that way today. Captains have been effectively "relieved of command" until the airplane is ready to push. No longer do I have the authority to:

Hold off boarding
Refuse a passenger (needs CP approval)
Hold a flight for late passengers

All that is long gone, so now I just sit in my cockpit with a nice cup of coffee until the jet is ready to fly. Maybe the company did us a favor. My job is a lot simpler now, but don't bother asking me what's going on...I have no idea. Ask the ramp tower.

Driver B)

 

[A320 Driver]

I don't believe a single word of this story.

You better believe it. A very similar incident happened to me in PHL. Mechanics asked me to hold boarding. I advised the agents. Next thing I know, here come the people. WTF??? I was told that Captains no longer have that authority and basically I should mind my own business. Looked it up in the FOM...one hand giveth while the other hand taketh away.

They want ontime performance so those bonuses can get paid out to management. I guess we Captains get in the way of that sometimes so they just legislate us out of the process. See my reply to Jim above. I say FINE! I'll just sit up front and let someone else figure it out.


Driver <_<

 

[luvn737s]

All that is long gone, so now I just sit in my cockpit with a nice cup of coffee until the jet is ready to fly. Maybe the company did us a favor. My job is a lot simpler now, but don't bother asking me what's going on...I have no idea. Ask the ramp tower.

Driver B)

Now we've found common ground!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Those were the days! Unfortunately things are not that way today. Captains have been effectively "relieved of command" until the airplane is ready to push. No longer do I have the authority to:

Hold off boarding
Refuse a passenger (needs CP approval)
Hold a flight for late passengers

Driver,

I don't intend this to be inflammatory but if that's the case you've given away your authority, not had it taken from you. Agents, mechanics, dispatchers, scheduling, whoever will be very happy to make your decisions for you if you allow them to. As SH said, at times you have to be willing to risk losing your job if keeping it the way it was is important enough. Maybe it was my advancing years before I retired, but the quickest way for someone to make me mad was to question my authority as captain. If they did it I was ready to go to any length to prove them wrong.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Those were the days! Unfortunately things are not that way today. Captains have been effectively "relieved of command" until the airplane is ready to push. No longer do I have the authority to:

Hold off boarding
Refuse a passenger (needs CP approval)
Hold a flight for late passengers

All that is long gone, so now I just sit in my cockpit with a nice cup of coffee until the jet is ready to fly. Maybe the company did us a favor. My job is a lot simpler now, but don't bother asking me what's going on...I have no idea. Ask the ramp tower.

Driver B)

Hold off boarding.....can still do that and would...fuel spill comes to mind.
Refuse a pax...you only need CP approval for denial because of suspicious behavior...intoxicated pax, etc.. is still all you.
Hold a flight for late pax....I am not supposed to do that???

 

[cleardirect]

The A/C had issues, several ecam problems and the captain asked maint guys if they wanted to hold boarding. Maint guys said yes since they would need to depower and repower aircraft, several resets etc. Capt. relayed this to the gate agent and told gate agent to hold boarding. 3 mins later the supervisor showed up at cabin door with entire line of pax behind him and made the statement and demanded that the pax be boarded. Never mind that the a/c was completly powered down at that point not even ground power hooked up. There was also something to the effect of "you have no authority, when the a/c is at the gate i own it" said by the gate supervisor. At this point the mechanic stepped in and said that they could not board the a/c. The supervisor didnt leave, he stood there with pax in tow for another 15 mins till the mechs determined that the a/c was not going anywhere and an a/c swap was in the works.

This is the environment that the east crews are dealing with at present. I think a lot of the differences we have seen in this thread on the subject is a result of the west not being subjected to the same treatment. It is obvious by the posts from several of the west guys over the past few pages that they would have the same issues east guys do if they saw the same treatment.

In this case, the supervisor was making threats about calling cp's etc etc until the mechanic stepped in. The Captain offered to let him use his phone since he had the cp on speeddial. I am confident that had the mech. not stepped in this would have grown into a Capt. Wells like incident. After seeing this occur in person and hearing about it from other guys on other occasions, I doubt ANY version of the Wells story if it comes from mgmt. SOP at the moment for dealing with east crews is beat them with a stick first, and if they still get back up....beat them again.

Could it be that after all of these years of demanding respect instead of earning it the gate and other employees have had it with the east pilot antics? After yelling fire or safety so many times that east pilots have no credibility anymore. After working with west pilots and being treated with respect they are learning that some pilots are actually polite and willing to work with the gate instead of dictate to the gate what happens. Gate agents can read flight numbers and they know who is flying the plane.

 

[A320 Driver]

Driver,

I don't intend this to be inflammatory but if that's the case you've given away your authority, not had it taken from you. Agents, mechanics, dispatchers, scheduling, whoever will be very happy to make your decisions for you if you allow them to. As SH said, at times you have to be willing to risk losing your job if keeping it the way it was is important enough. Maybe it was my advancing years before I retired, but the quickest way for someone to make me mad was to question my authority as captain. If they did it I was ready to go to any length to prove them wrong.

Jim

I listened to a VP rake a Captain over the coals for holding up door closing to accomodate some passengers he saw running onto the jetway. We (I) didn't give it up Jim. It was taken.

Much has changed since you left.

Driver B)

 

[cltrat]

. My job is a lot simpler now, but don't bother asking me what's going on...I have no idea. Ask the ramp tower.

Driver B)

if you're depending on the ramp tower in CLT all I can tell you is good luck with that