US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Since when has "escorting pilots off airplanes" happened before May 1? Nay, escorting the captain all the way to baggage claim and escorting the flight attendants from the gate to the inernational crew room, both cases through public areas. The flight attendants are pissed. Still.

The company will have to buy them off. When asked by the FAs, one thug said, "Shut the eff up". The other thug said "We don't want you to pollute the oncoming crew with your maintenance fantasies".

Had I been there, a phone call to PHL security or 911 and statements that a flight crew being held hostage/kidnapped would have been in order. Perhaps a request for SWAT intervention might have been next. Then, a call to the local paper.

This kind of thing happened before 1 May of this year?

Has it happened since? Do you think that something other than refusing an aircraft may have happened? There is more to this story that you guys care to admit.

BTW escorting someone out of the airport is not kidnapping or hostage taking. It is removing. But feel free to make that 911 call. Making a false call will get you escorted to the local jail though.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

What are nuisance writeups? The other day, a loose visor fell and hit me in the head at rotate. The clips were broken and the arm was loose, no amount of effort would restore it but i put it out of the way. Now does that get written up at the next stop or do we carry it back to CLT or PHX or PHL? Airbus, rudder trim window glass cracked...ignore ? write up now, later? On what authority do we not write it up immediately? Last leg of pairing...write it up and miss flight home or write it up in base? I have never flown with anyone who wasn't willing to nurse these issues to the sensible location but I don't think we are allowed to do it.. always a don't ask don't tell type policy for the good of all. We were complicate in these "violations" and we were compensated for our prudence. Well thats history as far as i can tell but since don't ask don't tell doesn't apply anymore, how could anyone require this type of complicity when it is illegal?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I listened to a VP rake a Captain over the coals for holding up door closing to accomodate some passengers he saw running onto the jetway. We (I) didn't give it up Jim. It was taken.

Much has changed since you left.

Driver B)

Well, your example concerns a specific company policy - a policy that the company is absolutely free to have or change as they see fit. Not really any different than wearing sweats when you work a trip - that's against company policy. And it falls outside the scope of captain's authority.

I'm talking about more serious issues - safety primarily although boarding when it interrupts needed maintenance or the airplane isn't ready to be boarded. No matter how much you say things have changed, I point out two over-riding things that haven't changed. The FAR's and FOM descriptions of captain's authority. When it comes to serious issues those trump anything else. But don't confuse captain's authority with merely violating company policy.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

No, I have arrived at quite a few A/C with F/A's and pax on board and ready to go. No body sent me a text asking my permission. If the aircraft is on a mechanical delay, I ask the tech to notify the folks who notify the gate. I know how to make the "machine" work and don't gum it up unnecessarily by getting into a heated argument to protect my turf.

In other words, I don't use a screwdriver as a hammer.

I give everyone involved as much info as I have so that they can make the decisions they are willing to live with. Once everyone has the same info, leaders can lead effectively.

At least that's what the fortune cookie told me!

We are talking apples and oranges.

I have also arrived at fully loaded airplanes. They were loaded once the F/As gave the gate the okay to board. They certainly were not boarded without F/As. Once again, it is the crew that gives the okay to board, not MX, not DX, not the ramp tower, not the gate agent or their supervisor.

I don't use a screwdriver or a hammer, TSA won't let me take them on the property.

 

[Black Swan]

What are nuisance writeups? The other day, a loose visor fell and hit me in the head at rotate. The clips were broken and the arm was loose, no amount of effort would restore it but i put it out of the way. Now does that get written up at the next stop or do we carry it back to CLT or PHX or PHL? Airbus, rudder trim window glass cracked...ignore ? write up now, later? On what authority do we not write it up immediately? Last leg of pairing...write it up and miss flight home or write it up in base? I have never flown with anyone who wasn't willing to nurse these issues to the sensible location but I don't think we are allowed to do it.. always a don't ask don't tell type policy for the good of all. We were complicate in these "violations" and we were compensated for our prudence. Well thats history as far as i can tell but since don't ask don't tell doesn't apply anymore, how could anyone require this type of complicity when it is illegal?

There is no such thing as a nuisance write up, nor are there items which may be carried. You are required by FAR to address any and all maintenance issues as they occur, wherever they occur. And it appears that when East pilots started to not carry items, like most pilots do, that is when the trouble started. Have you ever had a FAA inspector come on your jet, tell you about an item, and then you proceeded to carry it to a maintenance base? If you did, then you would have most likely been violated. This is why I think this injunction will be denied, as the judge will be educated enough to familiarize himself with this very item, and know East pilots are doing exactly what they are required by FAR to do. There are no provisions other than the MEL process to "carry" maintenance items anywhere. They either get MEL'd CDL'd or fixed. That is your only LEGAL recourse and FAR sanctioned action. Apparently the East pilots actually did carry items up to recently. Then they realized all the risk was on them, and the reward on Tempe, so they adhered to the letter of the FAR, which is a good thing. The West obviously is still carrying items. If anyone should have action taken on them by a judge, it should be the company, and west pilots.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

I don't intend this to be inflammatory but if that's the case you've given away your authority, not had it taken from you. Agents, mechanics, dispatchers, scheduling, whoever will be very happy to make your decisions for you if you allow them to. As SH said, at times you have to be willing to risk losing your job if keeping it the way it was is important enough.

You are correct. It is in the process of being ceded by pilots either not smart enough or without enough spine to enforce what they should know is right.

Those who I work with go overboard to encourage cooperation and with very rare time otherwise, actually encourage the "captain" characteristics you knew. Many know that the east pilot's endeavors will directly determine their own lifestyles and when invited, seem to be "on board" in many ways. Those I fly with, almost always, work as a team.

Should tempe continue this course, they should be very afraid. I've said it here before. A PHX push crew advised us that, should we do our checks right after push, that we "might" block two west pushes. Seems to happen more and more. Just sayin' PHX no less, love it.

 

[cleardirect]

You better believe it. A very similar incident happened to me in PHL. Mechanics asked me to hold boarding. I advised the agents. Next thing I know, here come the people. WTF??? I was told that Captains no longer have that authority and basically I should mind my own business. Looked it up in the FOM...one hand giveth while the other hand taketh away.

They want ontime performance so those bonuses can get paid out to management. I guess we Captains get in the way of that sometimes so they just legislate us out of the process. See my reply to Jim above. I say FINE! I'll just sit up front and let someone else figure it out.


Driver <_<

There you go. Easy job now. Let everyone do their job until you are ready to fly. No need to get worked up. Relax we don't get paid until the door closes so why do any work until we are getting paid?

 

[BoeingBoy]

It is in the process of being ceded by pilots either not smart enough or without enough spine to enforce what they should know is right.

I wouldn't put it that harshly. It's mostly human nature to take the easier path, so it's human nature to let things ride until something important comes along to upset the apple cart. That's when letting agents decide when to board, mechanics decide what you are comfortable with, whatever has it's unintended consequence.

Jim

 

[A320 Driver]

Well, your example concerns a specific company policy - a policy that the company is absolutely free to have or change as they see fit. Not really any different than wearing sweats when you work a trip - that's against company policy. And it falls outside the scope of captain's authority.

I'm talking about more serious issues - safety primarily although boarding when it interrupts needed maintenance or the airplane isn't ready to be boarded. No matter how much you say things have changed, I point out two over-riding things that haven't changed. The FAR's and FOM descriptions of captain's authority. When it comes to serious issues those trump anything else. But don't confuse captain's authority with merely violating company policy.

Jim

I'm not confused. You are measuring things by the paradigm you are familiar with. Very understandable. But it's a whole new day.

Driver B)

 

[A320 Driver]

I wouldn't put it that harshly. It's mostly human nature to take the easier path, so it's human nature to let things ride until something important comes along to upset the apple cart. That's when letting agents decide when to board, mechanics decide what you are comfortable with, whatever has it's unintended consequence.

Jim

They ask the Flight Attendants if they are ready to board, but they don't ask me squat except if it's OK to close the doors (Fuel Slip onboard).

 

[BoeingBoy]

But it's a whole new day.

My point was that it doesn't have to be and the captain has the government and company authority to stop it. If any captain is sure of his chosen path in one of these circumstances, no one can force him/her to do anything. Could there be repercussions later? Certainly if the captain overlooked something or whatever. But that is the price for wearing those 4 stripes. When you take the job it should be with the knowledge that your decisions will be second guessed/questioned at times. If anyone can't withstand the scrutiny that goes with the job maybe they shouldn't take the job. Basically all I see are claims, quite possibly accurate, that the second guessing/questioning is becoming more prevalent. But using that as an excuse to blame others for "taking away" captain's authority is a lame excuse. Agents, mechanics, CP's and even the company didn't lend that authority to captains to use as long as they played nice - it was bestowed by much higher authorities than that.

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

Well stated. Again.

 

[luvn737s]

I listened to a VP rake a Captain over the coals for holding up door closing to accomodate some passengers he saw running onto the jetway. We (I) didn't give it up Jim. It was taken.

Much has changed since you left.

Driver B)

Doug Parker has stated on many occasions that he wants to give front-line employees the freedom to do what is necessary and responsible to serve the customer. And then along comes USAPA and makes agents and team leads unwilling "spent cartidges" on a battlefield they never chose. I suppose conscripting them into USAPA's Pyrrhic battles was for their own good.

Did you ever think that block+16 was going to hit you in the conscience and possibly get some of your captain's authority taken away? Shoulda.

 

[Res Judicata]

Has it happened since? Do you think that something other than refusing an aircraft may have happened? There is more to this story that you guys care to admit.

BTW escorting someone out of the airport is not kidnapping or hostage taking. It is removing. But feel free to make that 911 call. Making a false call will get you escorted to the local jail though.

USLAPPY thought they would be protected by the fact they used a FEMALE 30 year Captain to hide their illegal job action behind. Wrong again! 1980 called, they want their strategies back.

 

[Black Swan]

There you go. Easy job now. Let everyone do their job until you are ready to fly. No need to get worked up. Relax we don't get paid until the door closes so why do any work until we are getting paid?

Are you advocating not doing your flows at the appropriate times and triggers? This would be construed as an illegal job action, and violation of policy, procedure and flows.