US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

How's that list of 2010 2011 prognostications coming along, Hate?

Jim

 

[Hate2fly]

How's that list of 2010 2011 prognostications coming along, Hate?

Jim

Jimmy Boy,

2011 is going to be a great year for the east. You can take that to the bank!

Hate

 

[cleardirect]

J. Freund told the west all the risk was on the west side. The west has always been younger and smarter. The spanking will begin soon.

Hate

It seems the risk has shifted. It is now all with the east. It will be the east that loses LOA 93. It is the east that has delayed any improvements in the contract. It is the east that will have an injunction hanging over your head.

Cleary has all of the risk of the wrath of angry east pilots coming down on him when this whole thing falls apart. 3.5 years of usapa and no improvement in sight.

 

[USA320Pilot]

OpEd: Should USAPA Revive the Joint Negotiating Committee and Provide a Rational Counter-Proposal?

Dear Subscriber,

OpEd for September 23, 2011:

Webadmin OpEd: Each year US Airways' pilots continue to delay the closing of a better contract, we fall further behind the rest of the industry. This delay will cause another enormous financial loss for our pilots because of the time value of money. Should we bring back the original Joint Negotiating Committee, revive the Kirby proposal & other agreed upon contract items, create a real Negotiating Committee, and present a rational counter-proposal to stop our bleeding?

Link to OpEd Article

Link to Previous OpEd Articles

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[Move2CLT]

Jimmy Boy,

2011 is going to be a great year for the east. You can take that to the bank!

Hate

It was supposed to be great when Cleary got into office. How did that go for you?

 

[crazystnic]

OpEd: Should USAPA Revive the Joint Negotiating Committee and Provide a Rational Counter-Proposal?

Dear Subscriber,

OpEd for September 23, 2011:

why are you so quick to let the company off the hook and be paid less than you are worth? Do you not fly jets from A to B jut like DL and SW?

 

[Hate2fly]

It seems the risk has shifted. It is now all with the east. It will be the east that loses LOA 93. It is the east that has delayed any improvements in the contract. It is the east that will have an injunction hanging over your head.

Cleary has all of the risk of the wrath of angry east pilots coming down on him when this whole thing falls apart. 3.5 years of usapa and no improvement in sight.

clear,

The westies told us last year that we lost LOA93. You guys have been so out of touch. Good luck.

Hate

 

[Move2CLT]

Read #1 again...slowly this time.

Time to give a rest driver. The draft decision was out and in the hands of both parties about three weeks ago. The executive session came and went with no changes to the decision and it was announced to both parties that it would be release sometime in the next 7-10 days. USAPA has activated its CIRP and is pulling its members offline for the impending announcement. It has gone completely in the company's favor.

Its better that you start accepting this now.

 

[Hate2fly]

It was supposed to be great when Cleary got into office. How did that go for you?

Move,

Cleary is doing everything we want him to do! There is a very large group of pilots that love having Mike in that position.

Hate

 

[Move2CLT]

Part 2 of Donn B.

As I stated earlier, the pay rates issue is not one of snapbacks. Therefore, it does not matter that Doug Mowery stated he didn't get snapbacks. Of course he didn't get snapbacks. Nowhere does it say "snapbacks". BTW, he has never said that to me and I have never seen any of his proposals indicating such. And, you know that his NC of those days (prior to DH) did not negotiate anyway. They merely accepted and carried the management written document that would become LOA93 back to the MEC and the pilots for a vote, but only after they were facing the debtors 1113 Motion and hearing in BK Court, and only after ALPA legal explained to the MEC the personal liability those gentlemen faced if they chose a different course of action.

The document is what it says. There is no disputing or getting around that. It is too late now for management to claim that they made a mistake with that provision. What legitimate claim can they make? Don't you think they have to make one? What would they say, "we never thought that 5 years of concessions was enough, that we always intended it to last into perpetuity"? I doubt that they even have financials for the post 2009 period of time. What could be their answer as to why the pay rates clause is the only provision that contains its own date; is written the way it is? Their lawyers knew how the amendable clause works under the RLA. Yet they wrote the provision the way they did nonetheless. You can rest assured that had that type of language been written by us to our detriment, management would insist that it was written that way for a reason and that it has full independent meaning. Meaningless words are not inserted into a contract by the brain dead. If it's there, it means something.

Again gentlemen, this is not a matter of a snapback. I wish we could take that word out of our lexicon here. This is a matter of an underlying document again having full force and effect because the explicit language of the overlying document has expired according to its own terms. It's as though the pay rates provision was rendered inoperative for a set period of time, then operative again.

Management wrote the pay rate clause, not Doug Mowery. They did it with a specific ending date and time. That is what a drafter does when he wants to indicate that a clause is not subject to the otherwise all encompassing "amendable clause".

I am not looking to create an argument or be disagreeable with you guys for no reason. But to let this lie is wrong. 5 years of industry basement pay rates is enough. That is what is in the LOA93 agreement, not more. Why don't you tell me why you think management wrote the pay rates clause so differently than all the rest. Then I could consider your thoughts and ideas, because as it stands, having them simply say "we didn't mean it" is not dispositive of the issue, and it is not legitimate contract law.

Regards,

Donn.

John Brookman disagrees. He said no provisions were made for snapbacks. Seems to me everyone else agrees.

 

[Move2CLT]

Move,

Cleary is doing everything we want him to do! There is a very large group of pilots that love having Mike in that position.

Hate

Hate,

Cleary is doing everything we want him to do as well!!! We love him out here too. I'm glad you like him in that position because we will all be voting for him.

Move

 

[Hate2fly]

John Brookman disagrees. He said no provisions were made for snapbacks. Seems to me everyone else agrees.

Move,

Classic! John is a good guy!

Hate

 

[mrbreeze]

Part 2 of Donn B.

As I stated earlier, the pay rates issue is not one of snapbacks. Therefore, it does not matter that Doug Mowery stated he didn't get snapbacks. Of course he didn't get snapbacks. Nowhere does it say "snapbacks". BTW, he has never said that to me and I have never seen any of his proposals indicating such. And, you know that his NC of those days (prior to DH) did not negotiate anyway. They merely accepted and carried the management written document that would become LOA93 back to the MEC and the pilots for a vote, but only after they were facing the debtors 1113 Motion and hearing in BK Court, and only after ALPA legal explained to the MEC the personal liability those gentlemen faced if they chose a different course of action.

The document is what it says. There is no disputing or getting around that. It is too late now for management to claim that they made a mistake with that provision. What legitimate claim can they make? Don't you think they have to make one? What would they say, "we never thought that 5 years of concessions was enough, that we always intended it to last into perpetuity"? I doubt that they even have financials for the post 2009 period of time. What could be their answer as to why the pay rates clause is the only provision that contains its own date; is written the way it is? Their lawyers knew how the amendable clause works under the RLA. Yet they wrote the provision the way they did nonetheless. You can rest assured that had that type of language been written by us to our detriment, management would insist that it was written that way for a reason and that it has full independent meaning. Meaningless words are not inserted into a contract by the brain dead. If it's there, it means something.

Again gentlemen, this is not a matter of a snapback. I wish we could take that word out of our lexicon here. This is a matter of an underlying document again having full force and effect because the explicit language of the overlying document has expired according to its own terms. It's as though the pay rates provision was rendered inoperative for a set period of time, then operative again.

Management wrote the pay rate clause, not Doug Mowery. They did it with a specific ending date and time. That is what a drafter does when he wants to indicate that a clause is not subject to the otherwise all encompassing "amendable clause".

I am not looking to create an argument or be disagreeable with you guys for no reason. But to let this lie is wrong. 5 years of industry basement pay rates is enough. That is what is in the LOA93 agreement, not more. Why don't you tell me why you think management wrote the pay rates clause so differently than all the rest. Then I could consider your thoughts and ideas, because as it stands, having them simply say "we didn't mean it" is not dispositive of the issue, and it is not legitimate contract law.

Regards,

Donn.

Thx for posting this, Hate.

It's perfect and right on time.

breeze

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

J. Freund told the west all the risk was on the west side. The west has always been younger and smarter. The spanking will begin soon.

Hate

Where ya been HATE? , get the paddles out a good ole spanking is about to begin! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Time to give a rest driver. The draft decision was out and in the hands of both parties about three weeks ago. The executive session came and went with no changes to the decision and it was announced to both parties that it would be release sometime in the next 7-10 days. USAPA has activated its CIRP and is pulling its members offline for the impending announcement. It has gone completely in the company's favor.

Its better that you start accepting this now.

REALLY? That's not the reading we got, are you in BIZARRO WORLD?