US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Marty and the gang knew darn well the DFR was not ripe.

You and others keep insisting on something which isn't true. "Ripe" is not a bright line visible to everyone but the westies, nothing could be further from the truth. Various courts have ruled on both sides in DFR suits - ripeness occurs when a contract is complete and ripeness occurs when the union gives an indication of the direction it's headed. Looking at this case, a lawyer could cite case law showing that ripeness occurred when USAPA put DOH in it's constitution. A lawyer could cite case law showing that ripeness occurred when USAPA gave it's seniority proposal to the company. A lawyer could cite case law showing that ripeness occurs only when a contract is completed. If the west hadn't filed the suit when it did, a contract without the Nic was ratified and then the west sued, I guarantee a USAPA lawyer would be arguing that ripeness occurred with the constitution language or DOH proposal and also arguing that the statute of limitations had expired.

Even the 9th has said:

"Ripeness is a case-specific inquiry and does not lend itself to broad, bright-line rules based on the type of claim asserted." (2000)

“It is important to a ripeness analysis that we specify the precise legal question to be answered. Depending on the legal question, the case may be ripe or unripe. If we ask the wrong legal question, we risk getting the wrong answer to the ripeness question.” (2006)

In other words, ripeness depends on the specific circumstances of a case and how a judge or judges view those circumstances. Even the Supreme Court has ruled differently on ripeness based on the unique circumstances of different cases. So for you or anyone else to claim that "the lawyers knew" or "it was obvious that it wasn't ripe" is delusional at best.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

I am pretty computer literate and I'm telling you that it won't work for my certificate.

If it really matters, download the FAA database - it's in zip format. When unzipped you only need the 1st of the 4 databases in the zip file - RELDOMCB for U.S. pilots. If your name isn't in there it won't show up on that other site, and it's because either you asked that your name/address not be released or the FAA applied someone else's request to your record.

Jim

 

[oscarjazz]

I actually thought that ALPA merger policy made sense, in theory. Unless you have a one-size-fits-all policy like the AFA and DOH, you have to have guidelines. ALPA's policy seemed to be setup to remove (try) the politics of the union itself and let the parties decide, and if not, a supposedly neutral third party. I figured that was so that a big airline like UA couldn't buy a little one like AWA and have the national union come down and let the bigger dues payer run roughshod over the little one. In doing so the union had some protection from DFR.

My biggest issue with ALPA merger policy was the one man arbitrator. That just never made sense to have the future of so many pilots in the hand of one person and his/her biases. Seems they agreed, after the horse was out of the barn.

I think ours went the way it did for a couple of reasons. The biggest was the disparity in seniority vs DOH on the east. I can't remember another airline that survived that had furloughed pilots with 16-17 years LOS. We had such a big bottle neck in the 80s that everyone was waiting on seats. Nic only looked at where we were in 2007, and not how fast the east had the potential to finally start moving up, a situation that I don't think would have been as big with a merger of AWA and anyone else. Add to that the fact that the side that felt they "lost" was the bigger group with big ALPA issues, and the time was perfect for what happened.

All IMHO, of course.

DAL/NWA was merged under the EXACT SAME merger policy as AAA/AWA. That merger policy contained (and still contains) a provision for the two sides to create an alternative process. That is what we did at DAL/NWA, we created our own process. Since then, merger policy has changed but for both the Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba and upcoming United/Continental integrations they also created their own process. Pinnacle, et al. did not use attorneys and had an informal combined mediation/arbitration session. You all were free to create your own process, but chose not to.

Everyone recognized the problem with longevity differences. Mr. Nicolau recognized them too and asked your merger committee to come up with some solution other than date of hire, which was so massively skewed to the AAA side. For some reason, your committee passed on the opportunity. Mr. Nicolau and his two pilot neutrals were left to themselves to devise a solution. Seems a little odd to leave the decision up to them and complain when you don't like the outcome.

My biggest problem with USAPA and the East pilots is that they are always looking around for someone or something to blame. You had the ability to control your destiny and you threw it away. That, my friend, is no one else's fault.

 

[apollo]

DAL/NWA was merged under the EXACT SAME merger policy as AAA/AWA. That merger policy contained (and still contains) a provision for the two sides to create an alternative process. That is what we did at DAL/NWA, we created our own process. Since then, merger policy has changed but for both the Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba and upcoming United/Continental integrations they also created their own process. Pinnacle, et al. did not use attorneys and had an informal combined mediation/arbitration session. You all were free to create your own process, but chose not to.

Everyone recognized the problem with longevity differences. Mr. Nicolau recognized them too and asked your merger committee to come up with some solution other than date of hire, which was so massively skewed to the AAA side. For some reason, your committee passed on the opportunity. Mr. Nicolau and his two pilot neutrals were left to themselves to devise a solution. Seems a little odd to leave the decision up to them and complain when you don't like the outcome.

My biggest problem with USAPA and the East pilots is that they are always looking around for someone or something to blame. You had the ability to control your destiny and you threw it away. That, my friend, is no one else's fault.

alpa landed on the taxi way on their handling of this. It is in the hands of the legal system now. Say hi to the Ross Perot look alike leo moak.

Nice try.

 

[Pi brat]

DAL/NWA was merged under the EXACT SAME merger policy as AAA/AWA. That merger policy contained (and still contains) a provision for the two sides to create an alternative process. That is what we did at DAL/NWA, we created our own process. Since then, merger policy has changed but for both the Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba and upcoming United/Continental integrations they also created their own process. Pinnacle, et al. did not use attorneys and had an informal combined mediation/arbitration session. You all were free to create your own process, but chose not to.

Everyone recognized the problem with longevity differences. Mr. Nicolau recognized them too and asked your merger committee to come up with some solution other than date of hire, which was so massively skewed to the AAA side. For some reason, your committee passed on the opportunity. Mr. Nicolau and his two pilot neutrals were left to themselves to devise a solution. Seems a little odd to leave the decision up to them and complain when you don't like the outcome.

My biggest problem with USAPA and the East pilots is that they are always looking around for someone or something to blame. You had the ability to control your destiny and you threw it away. That, my friend, is no one else's fault.

Before DL/NW had any merger used more than one arbitrator? Or did you guys learn from our disaster and come up with your solution?

We tried to come up with a solution, the west's line in the sand was Dave and they would not agree to put one furloughed pilot ahead of him. With that stance, the east committee decided to go the way they did. I think that was a mistake, but that doesn't make Nicolau completely right, in my opinion.

We did not have the ability to CONTROL our destiny. We had options to try and steer it.

And you, Mr. Real Delta, are not my friend.

 

[cactusboy53]

I am pretty computer literate and I'm telling you that it won't work for my certificate. I can get anyone else's by the same last name including my relatives, but mine will not come up...OK? Let go of that pride a little. Nobody is right all the time.

Driver B)

My wife says I am right all the time...Oh wait, that what I say when she is out of ear-shot.. !

 

[oscarjazz]

Before DL/NW had any merger used more than one arbitrator? Or did you guys learn from our disaster and come up with your solution?

We tried to come up with a solution, the west's line in the sand was Dave and they would not agree to put one furloughed pilot ahead of him. With that stance, the east committee decided to go the way they did. I think that was a mistake, but that doesn't make Nicolau completely right, in my opinion.

We did not have the ability to CONTROL our destiny. We had options to try and steer it.

And you, Mr. Real Delta, are not my friend.

The sun was in my eyes, I tripped over a rock, my mitt was too big, he didn't pass me the ball, the ref was blind.....................Excuses, excuses.

Now I am going to go cry my eyes out because you were mean to me. Really, how old are you?

 

[Phoenix]

Man you guys just won't quit, will you? You're no different than Chip, except that at least Chip is honest.
....

Chip has risen to such ignominy. He's famous! Just because he makes weekly cash donations to Doug's bar tab doesn't mean he is honest.

 

[apollo]

The sun was in my eyes, I tripped over a rock, my mitt was too big, he didn't pass me the ball, the ref was blind.....................Excuses, excuses.

Now I am going to go cry my eyes out because you were mean to me. Really, how old are you?

Delta pilot excuse.

We had a medical problem on board, so we landed on a taxi way.

 

[Pi brat]

The sun was in my eyes, I tripped over a rock, my mitt was too big, he didn't pass me the ball, the ref was blind.....................Excuses, excuses.

Now I am going to go cry my eyes out because you were mean to me. Really, how old are you?

Said SIC west whiner. Oh those mean old easties didn't play fair.....Waaaaa!


Mid 40s, you?

 

[Black Swan]

You usapians were convinced the West would just roll over. In fact, you went "all-in" on your DOH cram down by eliminating the West as a separate entity. The company took a step back and watched what the West would do. DFRs are notoriously difficult to win. The West did it - in TWO HOURS OF DELIBERATIONS! Yes we did spend a fair amount of money, plus had to defend against the wretched, unethical and very scabbish actions by the East of using their fake union to sue individual West pilots on fabricated claims. But, we did it and the company took note. When the 9th Cir. came out with their curve ball, it was the company who had to do something because they knew the West has a winning case and that they want no part of negotiating with USAPA absent blanket immunity. Plus, what's there not to love if you're Parker? He's got two-thirds of his pilot group on BK wages and he'll in all probability have an injunction to hold over the union. Doug doesn't need to negotiate.

That's what our $2million bought. Priceless.

Enjoy LOA93. I've got nearly two and a half decades left to amortize this debacle. How about you?

Aqua, were you part of the west legal braintrust that spent the 2 million? I really don't know how any lawyer/pilot of Leonidas could have possibly have missed the point on this one. It is like suing for damage in an auto accident that didn't happen, but you think will happen. Try filing the police report before it happens, the insurance claim, before it happens, and then try to book a trial, before the accident. It just does not make any sense at all. Unbelievable. The LOA pay win, if it happens, will seal the deal on Leonidas. The senior 2/3 West are going to want the money, and ditch the angry 1/3 AFO s driving the Leonidas debacle. It will be OVER.

 

[Black Swan]

You usapians were convinced the West would just roll over. In fact, you went "all-in" on your DOH cram down by eliminating the West as a separate entity. The company took a step back and watched what the West would do. DFRs are notoriously difficult to win. The West did it - in TWO HOURS OF DELIBERATIONS! Yes we did spend a fair amount of money, plus had to defend against the wretched, unethical and very scabbish actions by the East of using their fake union to sue individual West pilots on fabricated claims. But, we did it and the company took note. When the 9th Cir. came out with their curve ball, it was the company who had to do something because they knew the West has a winning case and that they want no part of negotiating with USAPA absent blanket immunity. Plus, what's there not to love if you're Parker? He's got two-thirds of his pilot group on BK wages and he'll in all probability have an injunction to hold over the union. Doug doesn't need to negotiate.

That's what our $2million bought. Priceless.

Enjoy LOA93. I've got nearly two and a half decades left to amortize this debacle. How about you?

Aqua, were you part of the west legal braintrust that spent the 2 million? I really don't know how any lawyer/pilot of Leonidas could have possibly have missed the point on this one. It is like suing for damage in an auto accident that didn't happen, but you think will happen. Try filing the police report before it happens, the insurance claim, before it happens, and then try to book a trial, before the accident. It just does not make any sense at all. Unbelievable. The LOA pay win, if it happens, will seal the deal on Leonidas. The senior 2/3 West are going to want the money, and ditch the angry 1/3 AFO s driving the Leonidas debacle. It will be OVER.

 

[Black Swan]

DAL/NWA was merged under the EXACT SAME merger policy as AAA/AWA. That merger policy contained (and still contains) a provision for the two sides to create an alternative process. That is what we did at DAL/NWA, we created our own process. Since then, merger policy has changed but for both the Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba and upcoming United/Continental integrations they also created their own process. Pinnacle, et al. did not use attorneys and had an informal combined mediation/arbitration session. You all were free to create your own process, but chose not to.

Everyone recognized the problem with longevity differences. Mr. Nicolau recognized them too and asked your merger committee to come up with some solution other than date of hire, which was so massively skewed to the AAA side. For some reason, your committee passed on the opportunity. Mr. Nicolau and his two pilot neutrals were left to themselves to devise a solution. Seems a little odd to leave the decision up to them and complain when you don't like the outcome.

My biggest problem with USAPA and the East pilots is that they are always looking around for someone or something to blame. You had the ability to control your destiny and you threw it away. That, my friend, is no one else's fault.

Bill Wilder, quoted below::




Bill_Wilder says:
August 18, 2009 at 1:41 pm
I didn’t say the process was flawed, I stated that the arbitration award didn’t conform to the arbitration agreement reflected in ALPA merger policy. It is well-established that you can challenge awards on that basis.

And the “process” worked at DAL/NWA because–for the first time in the history of ALPA Merger Policy–a three-arbitrator panel (with no pilot representatives was used.) ALPA didn’t trust that transaction to the typical merger process–doubtless in light of the AAA/AWA process.

“There is no compromise left” is a ridiculous statement. It was attitudes like that that caused the Wye River effort to fail and ALPA to lose the election to USAPA. And for there to be no combined CBA four years after the merger. A great track record of success.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Aqua, were you part of the west legal braintrust that spent the 2 million? I really don't know how any lawyer/pilot of Leonidas could have possibly have missed the point on this one. It is like suing for damage in an auto accident that didn't happen, but you think will happen. Try filing the police report before it happens, the insurance claim, before it happens, and then try to book a trial, before the accident. It just does not make any sense at all. Unbelievable. The LOA pay win, if it happens, will seal the deal on Leonidas. The senior 2/3 West are going to want the money, and ditch the angry 1/3 AFO s driving the Leonidas debacle. It will be OVER.

Bybee and Wake got it. The Second Circuit got it. Tashima and Graber said we get to do it again, and turns out that's fine by us. Why? Because you are on and will remain on LOA93.

 

[Black Swan]

Bybee and Wake got it. The Second Circuit got it. Tashima and Graber said we get to do it again, and turns out that's fine by us. Why? Because you are on and will remain on LOA93.

WAKE????



The decision reads like this case became a hobby for the judge. An explanation for this seemingly inexplicable award comes from the judge’s harsh criticism of USAPA’s attorneys, the law firm of Seham, Seham, Meltz & Peterson: